Where does Kallis rate as a batsman alone?

[vcs]

Stop being deliberately obtuse, you watch enough cricket to know that batting in South Africa is much more difficult than batting in India or Australia. The fact that games there always involve South Africa makes it impossible to gauge the effect statistically, but where he plays his home cricket is a big disadvantage for Kallis, and his sheer, unmatched dominance there is pretty impressive.

It is, but I think Jono made the point that he hasn't always dominated the best bowlers there (apart from England)... and obviously doesn't face SA bowlers which are a big part of what makes SA tough.

 

[Uppercut]

Id take Waugh but I wouldnt argue if people took Lara or Tendulkar. Being in the discussion is enough, I dont think we have to crown a definitive 'winner'

Yeah, was going to say something similar. They're all pretty close, it kinda just depends what factors affect your gut feeling. Seeing someone win an obscene amount of the matches they play has a big effect on how I feel towards a player's ability, much moreso than it really should, whereas I'm not so much affected by a batsman's ability to provide excitement or inspire awe in those watching.

 

[Uppercut]

It is, but I think Jono made the point that he hasn't always dominated the best bowlers there (apart from England)...

FWIW I don't actually consider scoring runs against the best bowlers necessarily better than scoring them against mediocre ones. Funny, because it's a much harder and rarer skill. But the game of cricket doesn't assign any additional importance to runs depending on the quality of the attack so I don't see why I should.

I've already bored everyone here on the subject so I'm reluctant to clog up another thread but feel free to PM me if you like.

 

[Migara]

Id take Waugh but I wouldnt argue if people took Lara or Tendulkar. Being in the discussion is enough, I dont think we have to crown a definitive 'winner'

Out of interest. using the 'Bradman Scale'- Who has the most runs over any period of 52 consecutive Tests in their career and the best average? I dont think it will prove anything, rather just be interesting to see the answer.

How about runs of 52 consecutive matches against 1 proper side and 3 minnows stand?

 

[vcs]

FWIW I don't actually consider scoring runs against the best bowlers necessarily better than scoring them against mediocre ones. Funny, because it's a much harder and rarer skill. But the game of cricket doesn't assign any additional importance to runs depending on the quality of the attack so I don't see why I should.

I've already bored everyone here on the subject so I'm reluctant to clog up another thread but feel free to PM me if you like.

Agree totally, but it's hard to make a fair comparison with competing great batsmen from other countries when they haven't had equal opportunities to face average attacks in the same conditions.

 

[weldone]

How about runs of 52 consecutive matches against 1 proper side and 3 minnows stand?

Yeah, Hashan Tillekaratne was a better batsman than Wally Hammond.

 

[GotSpin]

How about runs of 52 consecutive matches against 1 proper side and 3 minnows stand?

It was better when you were banned. Children rejoiced in the streets. Bon fires were started.

I look forward to your next injection of a Sri Lankan player into a discussion that neither needed or warranted it, presuming, of course, that said discussion involved overrated non Sri lankan players.

 

[Bun]

Tendulkar already averages more than Kallis. Since Kallis' debut, Tendulkar averages 58.11 anyways and has scored more runs than anyone barring Ponting as well, despite playing fewer matches and innings. Tendulkar is a cut above as he had to face Pollock, Donald, Steyn etc while missing out on the likes of Venkatesh Prasad, Ajit Agarkar, etc whom he would have butchered.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[sachin200]

Kallis' record in SA against various countries

 

[vcs]

Kallis' record in SA against various countries

Interesting to note that he has done well (both with bat and ball) against WI all the way back to '98 when they still had Ambrose/Walsh. So the criticism that he has feasted on them after they became weak is not really valid.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Yeah, that's a definite qualification to the link I posted, but his record is so good that the point still stands. Kallis has sustained for fifteen years a level of batting that pretty much no other player has even been able to match over five or six matches.



This is where you lose me. You're comparing Kallis's 6,000 runs @ 58 in by far the world's most difficult country to bat in to the theoretical runs you reckon Tendulkar or Ponting might have scored if they'd played for SA there. Considering that their career averages against by and large the same world attacks on much flatter pitches are both lower than Kallis's record in SA, on what grounds can you possibly make such a claim?

Besides, it reduces an argument to absurdity when you say things like this. Turning Ponting or Tendulkar South African changes everything, and will inevitably lead to someone saying "... but if Kallis was Indian/Australian/Mormon". You can only look at what players did, not what you think they would have done in a different era/country/helmet.

If Kallis averages 58 in SA, doesn't that mean he too averages lesser than his career average elsewhere, i.e. on the same flat pitches you speak of in the case of Ponting and Tendulkar? Your argument does not validate.

 

[Bun]

Interesting to note that he has done well (both with bat and ball) against WI all the way back to '98 when they still had Ambrose/Walsh. So the criticism that he has feasted on them after they became weak is not really valid.

Kallis averaged 47 in matches involving either one of Walsh or Ambrose, and 44 in which both featured. Both of them were nearing their career ends by that time regardless.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

His best performance was apparently in the Cape Town test of 99-00 series, where he scored 110 in the first innings, and 88* in the second, in which Walsh didn't play and Ambrose was injured during SA's first innings and didn't bowl in the second.

 

[Hit Wicket]

Interesting to note that he has done well (both with bat and ball) against WI all the way back to '98 when they still had Ambrose/Walsh. So the criticism that he has feasted on them after they became weak is not really valid.

1 century in 20 innings till Walsh and Ambrose were around followed by 7 in 23 innings after their retirement.

 

[honestbharani]

If Kallis averages 58 in SA, doesn't that mean he too averages lesser than his career average elsewhere, i.e. on the same flat pitches you speak of in the case of Ponting and Tendulkar? Your argument does not validate.

lol at the fact that Kallis NEVER has to face his own attack in his conditions not playing a part in his rating.


Anyways, for me, he is a clear rung below Ponting and a clear couple of rungs below Lara and Tendulkar. Put him alongside Dravid and Steve Waugh.

 

[Mike5181]

1 century in 20 innings till Walsh and Ambrose were around followed by 7 in 23 innings after their retirement.

Yeah but he was still relatively young in experience on the international stage. Compare him now to then. He is a much better player now.

 

[Furball]

Both Tendulkar and Ponting average close to 60 at home, don't they? I think they would have adjusted to keep a 55+ home average if they had grown up on SA pitches, looking at their technique. It's not a far-fetched claim IMO.

Off the top of my head, Sachin averages 56.something at home, Ponting averages 58.something.

Both impressive, but in Tendulkar's case, Sehwag averages more than he does in India (58), with Dravid averaging 53 and Laxman averaging 50 (iirc).

With Ponting, you've got Hussey averaging 67, Hayden averaging a touch under 58, Clarke averaging 54, Slater averaging 52, Steve Waugh averaging 51.

Kallis averages 58.something in South Africa. The closest South African batsman to him in home conditions is Ashwell Prince, who averages 47. Smith averages 46, Amla 44, de Villiers 37, Kirsten only averaged 42.

Ponting and Tendulkar have excellent home records, but neither of them stand as far above their contemporaries as Kallis.

 

[Mike5181]

lol at the fact that Kallis NEVER has to face his own attack in his conditions not playing a part in his rating.


Anyways, for me, he is a clear rung below Ponting and a clear couple of rungs below Lara and Tendulkar. Put him alongside Dravid and Steve Waugh.

I would put him slightly above Dravid and Steve Waugh and just below Ponting, Lara and Tendulkar. That could change though if he continues to make the progress that he has this year.

 

[Furball]

If Kallis averages 58 in SA, doesn't that mean he too averages lesser than his career average elsewhere, i.e. on the same flat pitches you speak of in the case of Ponting and Tendulkar? Your argument does not validate.

Given that his career average is almost 57, it's not like he's done that much worse away.

With the exception of England, where he averages 29 away, his record home and away against most countries is pretty consistent. It's probably his record in England which drags his away average below his home average.

edit: recent series vs Pakistan and India have skewed this a little.

              Home    Away  Overall
Australia    35.66   45.75    40.58
Bangladesh  127.00   31.50    79.25
England      53.87   29.30    42.70
India        88.00   58.46    67.78
New Zealand  68.83   66.25    67.80
Pakistan     47.25   90.50    66.90
Sri Lanka    32.10   35.33    33.63
West Indies  94.26   55.41    73.62
Zimbabwe     58.66  503.00   169.75

Overall      58.36   55.22    56.82

Tendulkar:

              Home    Away  Overall
Australia    62.65   58.53    60.59
Bangladesh     -    136.66   136.66
England      60.57   62.00    61.42
New Zealand  49.28   49.52    49.41
Pakistan     44.15   40.25    42.28
South Africa 36.25   44.63    41.10
Sri Lanka    52.50   67.94    60.45
West Indies  70.80   47.69    57.73
Zimbabwe    113.00   40.00    76.50

Overall      56.93   56.90    56.91

Ponting:

              Home    Away  Overall
Bangladesh   34.50   95.50    65.00
England      46.79   44.10    45.29
ICC World XI 50.00     -      50.00
India        79.35   26.48    47.88
New Zealand  55.90   60.33    57.47
Pakistan     69.82   62.11    66.82
South Africa 58.15   54.18    56.38
Sri Lanka    50.00   50.11    50.05
West Indies  45.38   78.00    59.06
Zimbabwe    129.50   31.00    96.66

Overall      58.24   49.18    53.85

Lara:

              Home    Away  Overall
Australia    66.04   41.97    51.00
Bangladesh   86.50     -      86.50
England      77.95   48.76    62.14
India        34.95   33.00    34.55
New Zealand  49.66   36.90    41.41
Pakistan     60.77   48.15    53.31
South Africa 51.41   46.72    49.00
Sri Lanka    69.83  100.85    86.53
Zimbabwe       -     55.50    55.50

Overall      58.65   47.80    52.88

 

[Hit Wicket]

Yeah but he was still relatively young in experience on the international stage. Compare him now to then. He is a much better player now.

Yeah, isn't it remarkable that immediately following the retirement/decline of some great fast bowlers and flattening of pitches how so many batsmen like Inzamam, Ponting, Kallis, Dravid, Jayawardene etc. etc. all become much better players.

Must be top billing for 'Coincidence of the Century' award.

 

[Uppercut]

If Kallis averages 58 in SA, doesn't that mean he too averages lesser than his career average elsewhere, i.e. on the same flat pitches you speak of in the case of Ponting and Tendulkar? Your argument does not validate.

Yes! In the same way that his poor record against Australia relative to Sachin also implies that he's much better than Sachin at batting against someone else, somewhere.

My argument isn't that Kallis is somehow better than Tendulkar because he scores more heavily on his home pitches where runs mysteriously count double because conditions most resemble those that were present Back in the Glorious Nineties. It's merely that he's at a disadvantage because of where he has to play his home games. All batsmen have these advantages and disadvantages relative to one another. Tendulkar had pretty friendly home conditions, but he also had to play for longer against some of the best bowlers around. Ponting was part of a winning team, but he's also been burdened with captaincy for a huge chunk of his career. Kallis's disadvantages, given how much less popular he is, tend to receive a lot less attention than Tendulkar's or Ponting's, and since playing home games in South Africa is a huge disadvantage relative to those two I thought pointing it out would correct that a touch.

You should be aware of how little I care for weighing these advantages and disadvantages off against each other though. I don't think there's any conceivable way to decipher them, and I certainly don't think "watching them play" is a good way of trying to make up our minds on the subject when the margins are so fine. Cognitive biases are just too damn strong to even make a wild guess, and trying to do so would make cricket really boring. AFAIC, if they've both scored a similar amount of runs at a similar average over a very long period of time, they're round about as good at batting as each other. Given that, Kallis's bowling makes him a much, much more valuable player than any of the batsmen that he averages within a couple of runs of. And that's the source of my Kallis-love .