Where does Kallis rate as a batsman alone?

[fezzie]

just wanted to mention, kallis has 21 man of the match awards in tests.

thats more than ...



run machine for south africa, he will get to 50 centuries as well.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

I wonder how much Kallis would average, if at all different, if he had never been a bowler. Yes, he doesn't bowl so much these days and he always looks reluctant to turn his arm over, but he's saddled a fair weight for South Africa and he's so incredibly consistent. He's the sort of guy you'd choose to bat for your life. He's definitely right up there for me.

 

[Cricketismylife]

Blaze 18 I agree it's a little harsh, just trying to point out that Kallis averages 4 more than say Lara. While I think Lara's better because he was a lone wolf in a weaker team, played some absolute classics and played more in the 90s.

For me I judge that to marginally cancel out the 4 runs Kallis averages over him. However, unless someone can prove that Lara faced significantly better bowling throughout his career ie he faced Mcgrath, Wasim, Donald etc while Kallis faced Agarkar, then there is no way he could be seen as being in a different league to Kallis. We are judging on effectiveness not aesthetics.

 

[Tom 1972]

Tier 1-
V Richards, Lara, Bradman, Tendulkar and Sobers.

Tier 2 (Post 1975) -
Chappell, Gavaskar, Waugh, Ponting, Dravid & Kallis.

I think Viv, Lara, Cachin and Sobers would be embarassed to be on the same tier as the Don.


Anyway: I'm not even sure Kallis is the best ever South African batter.

I wasn't born when Barry Richards and Graeme Pollock played their Tests, but better judges than me have said that they were truly ATGs, if not for the political sitution.


But how many ATGs can there be?

 

[Maximus0723]

I think Viv, Lara, Cachin and Sobers would be embarassed to be on the same tier as the Don.


Anyway: I'm not even sure Kallis is the best ever South African batter.

I wasn't born when Barry Richards and Graeme Pollock played their Tests, but better judges than me have said that they were truly ATGs, if not for the political sitution.


But how many ATGs can there be?

This.

 

[Hit Wicket]

Can't see him in the top 20 for sure. Can think of the following batsmen clearly better than him :

Bradman
Tendulkar
Lara
Hobbs
Richards
Gavaskar
Ponting
Dravid
Chappell
Sobers
Trumper
Ranjitsinhji
Border
Waugh
Sehwag
Sangakkara
Headley
Pollock
Sutcliffe
Hammond
Hutton
Walcott

 

[akilana]

Can't see him in the top 20 for sure. Can think of the following batsmen clearly better than him :

Bradman
Tendulkar
Lara
Hobbs
Richards
Gavaskar
Ponting
Dravid
Chappell
Sobers
Trumper
Ranjitsinhji
Border
Waugh
Sehwag
Sangakkara
Headley
Pollock
Sutcliffe
Hammond
Hutton
Walcott

 

[Howe_zat]

Can't see him in the top 20 for sure. Can think of the following batsmen clearly better than him :

Bradman
Tendulkar
Lara
Hobbs
Richards
Gavaskar
Ponting
Dravid
Chappell
Sobers
Trumper
Ranjitsinhji
Border
Waugh
Sehwag
Sangakkara
Headley
Pollock
Sutcliffe
Hammond
Hutton
Walcott

These I really think should be rated below Kallis. Dravid as discussed has had a major drop in success over the last 3-4 years. Sehwag and Sanga? Good to watch, perhaps, but, no. Richards is difficult, but 4 Tests is really not enough to put him in this kind of company - we can't go on what might have been at this level. Harsh but fair.

Then, Chappell. I'm open to the discussion but I remain unconvinced by him at the top - perhaps I need to have seen him bat, maybe you just had to be there - but his record doesn't rack up to some of these names, or Kallis'.

 

[marc71178]

I think it's Viv not Barry.

 

[Howe_zat]

I think it's Viv not Barry.

...Yes.

It's late.

 

[Burgey]

These I really think should be rated below Kallis. Dravid as discussed has had a major drop in success over the last 3-4 years. Sehwag and Sanga? Good to watch, perhaps, but, no. Richards is difficult, but 4 Tests is really not enough to put him in this kind of company - we can't go on what might have been at this level. Harsh but fair.

Then, Chappell. I'm open to the discussion but I remain unconvinced by him at the top - perhaps I need to have seen him bat, maybe you just had to be there - but his record doesn't rack up to some of these names, or Kallis'.

You'd rate Greg Chappell below Kallis as a batsman, or consider it? I understand what you say mate, but seriously, Chappell was a master player. Not saying Kallis isn't a beauty mind.

 

[Howe_zat]

You'd rate Greg Chappell below Kallis as a batsman, or consider it? I understand what you say mate, but seriously, Chappell was a master player. Not saying Kallis isn't a beauty mind.

Fair enough - like I said, I can't be perfectly informed. Was pretty cautious about putting that forward, I'm of a certain age - (and nationality) - and haven't heard much about him. So I can't really sing his praises.

 

[Uppercut]

He's horrendously underappreciated in general, but in particular I've always felt he doesn't get enough credit for mastering South African conditions. No one ever scores runs in South Africa, but Kallis does it without thinking. Check it out: Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Burgey]

Fair enough - like I said, I can't be perfectly informed. Was pretty cautious about putting that forward, I'm of a certain age - (and nationality) - and haven't heard much about him. So I can't really sing his praises.

Fair enough.. Lucky you being of an age you didn't see him!!

 

[Hit Wicket]

You could argue about 2-3 names in my list above and it would just come down to personal preferences in those instances, but by and large all those names would be above Kallis in most people's lists making it very difficult for him to break into the top 20.

For me, the top 10 would figure as all time greats, so Kallis is a fair bit away from the all time great batsmen.

 

[akilana]

You could argue about 2-3 names in my list above and it would just come down to personal preferences in those instances, but by and large all those names would be above Kallis in most people's lists making it very difficult for him to break into the top 20.

For me, the top 10 would figure as all time greats, so Kallis is a fair bit away from the all time great batsmen.

All except Bradman come down to personal preference.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Kallis gets a fair bit of stick for not being entertaining enough in an age of some brilliant and entertaining batsmen, but if you stuck him along side some of the greats of previous eras, his strike rate isn't bad. Not saying he's better than, say, Hutton but how many cricket fans would appreciate a Hutton in this day and age?

 

[Mike5181]

Kallis gets a fair bit of stick for not being entertaining enough in an age of some brilliant and entertaining batsmen, but if you stuck him along side some of the greats of previous eras, his strike rate isn't bad. Not saying he's better than, say, Hutton but how many cricket fans would appreciate a Hutton in this day and age?

That's a good point actually. We are judging Kallis by todays standards.

 

[Hit Wicket]

I don't have any arguments against his playing style.

It's just that he seems to have feasted on a lot of weaker attacks, significantly more than his other top notch contemporaries like Tendulkar and Lara. Some would argue that it's not Kallis' fault that the others could not cash in as much on the weaker bowling units, but the way I like to judge is how well a batsman performs against the best rather than who can pummel the weaker attacks more.

He has 8 hundreds against West Indies - 7 of them against absolutely ordinary attacks
6 against Pakistan, most of them against attacks missing their top bowlers
5 against New Zealand
4 against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh

In contrast, Tendulkar has 17 hundreds against Australia and South Africa and 33 if you include England and Sri Lanka. Kallis has just 8 against Australia, England, and Sri Lanka.

Similarly with Lara, 13 of his centuries are against Australia and South Africa, 25 including England and Sri Lanka.

The biggest tell sign is that one really has to think hard to come up with Kallis innings which would stand out from the crowd. You can roll them off your tongue for Tendulkar and Lara, and to a lesser extent for Ponting and Dravid.

 

[Sanz]

Up there with the best. We all talk about how good a year Tendy is having, Kallis is having as good a year with bat as Tendy. In my book he is one of the greatest players to play the game on his batting alone. If you include his bowling, he is among the top 10 to ever play the game.