Amongst current non sub-continental batsmen,who is the best player of spin?

[smash84]

Finally someone who agrees with me.

Where are the people who agree that Kallis is the best

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Where are the people who agree that Kallis is the best

Kallis is certainly one of the best players of spin ever,sc or otherwise.In the context of this thread,however,(i.e current form)there are better imo.

 

[tooextracool]

Is Kallis really one of the best players against spin? His record against Murali is dodgy at best, and by and large it was only later in his career that he managed to solve his problems against Warne. Hes not poor against spin but hes not anything special either.

 

[Cevno]

Might not be directly relevant to the topic of this thread, but here are Murali's top 10 hes bowled to:

MUTHIAH MURALIDARAN’S 10 TOP BATSMEN

1. Brian Lara (WI)

2. Mohammad Azharuddin (India)

3. Sachin Tendulkar (India)

4. Navjot Sidhu (India)

5. Salim Malik (Pakistan)

6. Inzamam-ul-Haq (Pakistan)

7. Andy Flower (Zimbabwe)

8. Graham Thorpe (England)

9. Jon Crawley (England)

10. Hansie Cronje (South Africa)

taken from (http://www.backpagelead.com.au/cricket/2889-aussie-batsmen-not-in-my-top-10-murali)

I am sure he hated the most to bowl to Sidhu and Lara.

Sidhu used to charge him down and smash him to all parts.

I remember Ranatunga saying in one program that Murali used to not want to ball to Sidhu most times,specially with Attacking fields early on in his career.
Ranatunga said that Murali used to Anna i want a long off and long on as Sidhu will Smash me for a sixe straight.

 

[tooextracool]

Meh Sidhu was hilarious. He would just block and block and block while the pace bowlers were on and then as soon as anyone below 65mph was brought on he would smell blood and launch them into all parts of the crowd.

 

[aussie]

Yeah think a lot of those players benefitted from having to play Murali without the Doosra. Thorpe struggled against Murali in his first series against Murali with the doosra. Certainly can't say that Im not a bit surprised that Sehwag and Lehmann arent in that list.

Ye good point on Thorpe that. In that 2003/04 series, that doosra changed the dynamic.

Sehwag i'm not surprised yea. He dominated Murali @ the fag end of his career when he was passed his peak.

Lehmann, hmm. He played Murali superbly in that 2004 series when Murali had his doosta, so i dont know.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Is Kallis really one of the best players against spin? His record against Murali is dodgy at best, and by and large it was only later in his career that he managed to solve his problems against Warne. Hes not poor against spin but hes not anything special either.

I am not a fan of this "average in matches involving so and so player" stat for aforementioned reasons.I can't recall him having undue trouble against Murali.He did have a few issues against Warne but we are talking about a bloke who took 700 test wickets.

I suppose what goes against him is that he never really took a spinner on and smashed him around like a Lara.But yes,calling him one of the best players of spin ever is perhaps an overstatement.

 

[tooextracool]

I am not a fan of this "average in matches involving so and so player" stat for aforementioned reasons.I can't recall him having undue trouble against Murali.He did have a few issues against Warne but we are talking about a bloke who took 700 test wickets.

I suppose what goes against him is that he never really took a spinner on and smashed him around like a Lara.But yes,calling him one of the best players of spin ever is perhaps an overstatement.

I definitely think he had problems against Murali earlier in his career. Hes yet to register a 100 against Murali or SL. You've acknowledged yourself that he had problems against Warne for most of his career until 2006/07 when Warne was largely a spent force. I understand that hes improved and hes a better player against spin now than earlier in his career but go back and watch some of Kallis earlier in his career and you'd notice that spin was hardly his strong suit. Sure he wasn't as bad as some of his teammates like Gibbs but Id argue he has always been far from the best player of spin in his own side let alone in the world.

 

[aussie]

Yeah think a lot of those players benefitted from having to play Murali without the Doosra. Thorpe struggled against Murali in his first series against Murali with the doosra. Certainly can't say that Im not a bit surprised that Sehwag and Lehmann arent in that list.

Yea good point on Thorpe. In the 2003/04 tour. Murali finding that doosra changed the dynamic.

Sehwag yea. He domiated Murali when he was passed his peak.

Lehmann played Murali extremely well when he had his doosra in that 2004 AUS tour.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

I definitely think he had problems against Murali earlier in his career. Hes yet to register a 100 against Murali or SL. You've acknowledged yourself that he had problems against Warne for most of his career until 2006/07 when Warne was largely a spent force. I understand that hes improved and hes a better player against spin now than earlier in his career but go back and watch some of Kallis earlier in his career and you'd notice that spin was hardly his strong suit. Sure he wasn't as bad as some of his teammates like Gibbs but Id argue he has always been far from the best player of spin in his own side let alone in the world.

Strange that he does not have a century against sl,has pretty impressive records in ind-pak though.

About the point that he hasn't even been the best player of spin in the Sa side even-I agree(I guess I did get carried away when I called him one of the best ever).Cronje,Kirsten,Klusener,AB were/are all better at playing spin.

The argument that Kallis got the better of a Warne past his peak is not something I completely agree with.The Adelaide spell in Warne's last series was amongst his best ever.Could have carried on till last year if he had really wanted to,imo.He wasn't a spent force even in his last series.

 

[Contra]

The thing with Kevin Pietersen is that he looks better against spin when he looks to attack spinners. I haven't watched a lot of KP but from the few series I have he isn't the most comfortable blocking for an extended period of time. I remember Pyush Chawla troubling him in the ODI's in 07 and the Yuvraj also getting him a few times in the 08 tour. Almost all of those were either bowled or LBW. He's never really gotten out stumped or caught somewhere.


As for the actual topic I would have to go with Michael Clarke. Although he does get out to spinners a fair bit for whatever reason. Maybe trying to be a bit too fancy at times like he did during the 2 test series that just finished.

 

[sifter132]

Interesting that Murali named not one Australian in his top 10, yet that is the country he has the highest bowling average against. Maybe John Howard really did get to him... Or more likely, maybe there were just no individual standouts. Lehmann was mentioned, but he didn't play against Murali much really - just 3 Tests.

 

[Spark]

The thing with Kevin Pietersen is that he looks better against spin when he looks to attack spinners. I haven't watched a lot of KP but from the few series I have he isn't the most comfortable blocking for an extended period of time. I remember Pyush Chawla troubling him in the ODI's in 07 and the Yuvraj also getting him a few times in the 08 tour. Almost all of those were either bowled or LBW. He's never really gotten out stumped or caught somewhere.


As for the actual topic I would have to go with Michael Clarke. Although he does get out to spinners a fair bit for whatever reason. Maybe trying to be a bit too fancy at times like he did during the 2 test series that just finished.

Generally speaking in the recent past - this series aside - he's gotten out going for the big hit, usually after getting 100. So yeah, difficult to count those.

 

[Contra]

The thing with Kevin Pietersen is that he looks better against spin when he looks to attack spinners. I haven't watched a lot of KP but from the few series I have he isn't the most comfortable blocking for an extended period of time. I remember Pyush Chawla troubling him in the ODI's in 07 and the Yuvraj also getting him a few times in the 08 tour. Almost all of those were either bowled or LBW. He's never really gotten out stumped or caught somewhere.


As for the actual topic I would have to go with Michael Clarke. Although he does get out to spinners a fair bit for whatever reason. Maybe trying to be a bit too fancy at times like he did during the 2 test series that just finished.

Generally speaking in the recent past - this series aside - he's gotten out going for the big hit, usually after getting 100. So yeah, difficult to count those.

Yeah true. I've only watched Clarke during Ind-Aus series (well seriously at least) so I guess that's probably why I said that. I remember in the 07/08 tour of Aus he got out to Bhajji and Kumble quite a bit ( fairly early in the innings as well). But overall your probably right.

 

[Athlai]

KP has gotten out to left arm spinners 17 times in Tests in the 111 times he has been dismissed. Vettori, Shakib, Harris and Benn have accounted for 14 of these wickets.

And 15 times in ODIs from the 79 times he has been dismissed.

 

[vcs]

Ye good point on Thorpe that. In that 2003/04 series, that doosra changed the dynamic.

Sehwag i'm not surprised yea. He dominated Murali @ the fag end of his career when he was passed his peak.

Lehmann, hmm. He played Murali superbly in that 2004 series when Murali had his doosta, so i dont know.

He bowled brilliantly in that series and took 20+ wickets, where none of the other big-name Indian batsmen in the middle order could handle Murali and Mendis. Definitely not past his best.

 

[tooextracool]

No disrespect to Sehwag or Murali here but I think its pretty fair to say that the Murali that Sehwag played in 08 was past his best. The wickets that he took that series were almost a direct result of the spell that Mendis had on the Indians more than anything else.

The 2 of them combined were bowling about 4/5th the overs in each test match, and logic would dictate that if you cant pick one of them whatsoever you have to go after the other one. It wasnt just a case of seeing either of them off as it would be if they were pace bowlers, those 2 would bowl all day.

 

[vcs]

No disrespect to Sehwag or Murali here but I think its pretty fair to say that the Murali that Sehwag played in 08 was past his best. The wickets that he took that series were almost a direct result of the spell that Mendis had on the Indians more than anything else.

The 2 of them combined were bowling about 4/5th the overs in each test match, and logic would dictate that if you cant pick one of them whatsoever you have to go after the other one. It wasnt just a case of seeing either of them off as it would be if they were pace bowlers, those 2 would bowl all day.

Well, I dunno. Only Murali can truly say whether he was past his best or not. What's not in doubt is that Sehwag played him superbly and was the only Indian batsman who managed it in that series.

 

[tooextracool]

Well, I dunno. Only Murali can truly say whether he was past his best or not. What's not in doubt is that Sehwag played him superbly and was the only Indian batsman who managed it in that series.

Tbh honest, I was more impressed with the way that he handled Mendis rather than Murali that series.

 

[Migara]

The thing with Kevin Pietersen is that he looks better against spin when he looks to attack spinners. I haven't watched a lot of KP but from the few series I have he isn't the most comfortable blocking for an extended period of time. I remember Pyush Chawla troubling him in the ODI's in 07 and the Yuvraj also getting him a few times in the 08 tour. Almost all of those were either bowled or LBW. He's never really gotten out stumped or caught somewhere.

That proved successful only at the very beginning. Then spinners (Murali, Vettori and Shakib) took him by the scruff of the neck. Since then it had been a downward slide for him.