Official Pro-Wrestling Thread (WWE, TNA, ROH etc.)

[King Pietersen]

Cena is the biggest name in Wrestling. Angle's a pretty big name, but Cena has more fans and sells far more merchandise than Angle does. You'll continue to deny that fact though, as you're a huge Angle fanboy, but there is no way on earth that Kurt Angle is a bigger name in Professional Wrestling than John Cena. Might not like Cena, he might not be as technically proficient as Angle, but he's ridiculously popular, very charismatic and decent enough in the ring to pull off good matches.

 

[GIMH]

Cena the face of wrestling?

I can't remember another top-line good guy that has been boo'ed as much as what Cena has over the past years. You say that Cena is bigger then Angle was? How come when they were feuding when Angle was the bad guy and he was getting more cheers then Cena was?

You never hear any kayfabe stuff about Cena being the greatest wrestler in the world, which used to always be said about HHH.

So you're ignoring the fact that he sells more merchandise than the rest of the WWE, and the whole of TNA?

How on earth you could dispute him as the top guy is beyond me.

He feuded with Angle about six years ago?! Might as well mention HHH's feud with Duke the Dumpster Droese or something.

The idea of Cena is not to be a technical wizard, he always gets put over as the man who never gets kept down or gives up. Another reason why the feud with batista has been so hot.

It's posts like yours that cause wrestlers to look down on smarks, true story

 

[GIMH]

Oh and in 2000 when Benoit won the title from Rock the crowd went crazy. The win was reversed in a Dusty finish, but the cheers were there. Does this mean Rock wasn't the biggest name in wrestling at that point (Austin was out injured)? Nah.

He gets booed by smark elements in the crowd - he never fails to draw a reaction though, and lately he's been getting almost full-on pops. And even with the boos mixed in he gets a bigger cheer than anyone else.

 

[duffer]

Think Jono's nailed it regarding Trips. No-one claimed he books the entire shows or whatever. He has however produced a reign of screen dominance unmatched in all my time of watching wrestling. Remember a period where you couldn't have an episode of RAW without this guy on screen cutting a 15 minute promo somewhere along the way and then following it up with an abomination fo a main event tag match or some other garbage, or seeing him dominating all his opponents on the mic instead of trying to put the feud over. One of the things which started to turn me away from watching the WWE.

Then there's the whole never wanting to put someone over who he perceives could be a threat to him despite it being the best thing for the business (going completely against his claim that he'd love to draw money with anybody if he could). That's been done to death so I might as well not bother with it.

On Cena's in ring ability. I saw plenty of the guys matches in OVW and as a technician he was quite good without ever being outstanding. His gimmick in the WWE means he really can't wrestle a style that is too technical without it being completely incongruent to the way he wants to be portrayed. He gets himself over in his ability to connect with the audience and garner reactions from them. Even if his reactions are negative from the smark element it is still a reaction and is better in every aspect than apathy.

In ring wrestling ability is secondary in pro wrestling if you can't make people care about you. It's a highly nuanced art form in itself which most smarks who love being superior can never appreciate. Hogan was the guy who first realised and exploited this to the fullest and is arguably the most over wrestler(and to this day the first name most non-wrestling fans would come up with when referencing pro-wrestling) in history. Give me a Cena over a Haas or Malenko anyday.

 

[duffer]

Also, been a good read these past few pages. Much love y'all

 

[GIMH]

Think Jono's nailed it regarding Trips. No-one claimed he books the entire shows or whatever. He has however produced a reign of screen dominance unmatched in all my time of watching wrestling. Remember a period where you couldn't have an episode of RAW without this guy on screen cutting a 15 minute promo somewhere along the way and then following it up with an abomination fo a main event tag match or some other garbage, or seeing him dominating all his opponents on the mic instead of trying to put the feud over. One of the things which started to turn me away from watching the WWE.

Then there's the whole never wanting to put someone over who he perceives could be a threat to him despite it being the best thing for the business (going completely against his claim that he'd love to draw money with anybody if he could). That's been done to death so I might as well not bother with it.

On Cena's in ring ability. I saw plenty of the guys matches in OVW and as a technician he was quite good without ever being outstanding. His gimmick in the WWE means he really can't wrestle a style that is too technical without it being completely incongruent to the way he wants to be portrayed. He gets himself over in his ability to connect with the audience and garner reactions from them. Even if his reactions are negative from the smark element it is still a reaction and is better in every aspect than apathy.

In ring wrestling ability is secondary in pro wrestling if you can't make people care about you. It's a highly nuanced art form in itself which most smarks who love being superior can never appreciate. Hogan was the guy who first realised and exploited this to the fullest and is arguably the most over wrestler(and to this day the first name most non-wrestling fans would come up with when referencing pro-wrestling) in history. Give me a Cena over a Haas or Malenko anyday.

I'm at the agree to disagree stage regarding HHH, agree 100% with the last two paragraphs though. Especially the bolded bit, find myself banging my head against the wall sometimes.

 

[duffer]

In fact I could say that ironically the smarks who boo Cena give far more of a **** about him than the blind marks who cheer him. It's good to see they care tbh.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

It's posts like yours that cause wrestlers to look down on smarks, true story

Well basically every thing I said prior to my last post is what Kurt Angle said in his shoot interview a few years ago and I reckon he knows a bit more about the business then what you or anyone else on this forum does.

I'm not a smark either, I barely even watch wrestling anymore. If Cena was booked properly then I wouldn't have a problem but his been a massive part in the decline of wrestling. Once his gone, I doubt many will remember him like they do with Rock, Austin, Hogan, Flair, etc.

 

[GIMH]

Well basically every thing I said prior to my last post is what Kurt Angle said in his shoot interview a few years ago and I reckon he knows a bit more about the business then what you or anyone else on this forum does.

I'm not a smark either, I barely even watch wrestling anymore. If Cena was booked properly then I wouldn't have a problem but his been a massive part in the decline of wrestling. Once his gone, I doubt many will remember him like they do with Rock, Austin, Hogan, Flair, etc.

Explain how Cena isn't booked properly please??

 

[wfdu_ben91]

Explain how Cena isn't booked properly please??

Booked as the unbeatable babyface, who only loses by getting majorly screwed over. Hasn't been a heel since 2003.

 

[duffer]

Well if he lost the goofy cheesedick comedy and was more "real" then it'd be a massive improvement. I'd actually love watching the guy. I can't see where from a matches standpoint he or creative fall down. Will never happen but a full blown heel turn after Mania would electrify the ME picture for a long long time. So agree with ben there.

I reckon it's the type of thing that could dramatically decrease the pro-Mania slump that happens every year.

 

[GIMH]

Booked as the unbeatable babyface, who only loses by getting majorly screwed over. Hasn't been a heel since 2003.

That's how you book your top face. I wouldn't actually be against a Cena heel turn in the right circumstances but that doesn't mean he's been badly booked does it?

Well if he lost the goofy cheesedick comedy and was more "real" then it'd be a massive improvement. I'd actually love watching the guy. I can't see where from a matches standpoint he or creative fall down. Will never happen but a full blown heel turn after Mania would electrify the ME picture for a long long time. So agree with ben there.

I reckon it's the type of thing that could dramatically decrease the pro-Mania slump that happens every year.

Yeah, I agree on the comedy stuff - some of his best mic work has come these past few months with Vince & Batista. The promo he cut on Vince about Wrestlemania moments was incredible.

A heel turn would be great, his previous heel work was very good. But there's nobody to step into his spot. Edge & Orton would both be risks, Shawn is going to be gone at least for a while regardless of the result, likely same with Taker. It leaves you with Triple H who has main event face pedigree, or an early elevation of someone like Kofi or Morrison who isn't ready.

if Orton gets over big time as the anti-face then I think it is a risk they can take. But he's not stale enough to demand it. The Austin heel turn in 01 made sense because it fit right in with his desperation to be champion, and because in his absence The Rock became top dog. Cena would need a similar scenario for it to be worth the gamble I reckon.

In conclusion Ben, I think you're off the mark saying he hasn't been booked right but a heel turn - well it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

A heel turn for Cena is long overdue, IMO.

It'd be pretty funny to start seeing other wrestlers apply the STF to Cena as they would most likely execute the move a hell of allot better then what Cena does.

 

[GIMH]

As I say, you may or may not consider it long overdue. But realistically who would step into his place? The only guy who has come close to being as over as Cena in face terms recently is Jeff Hardy, he could never be trusted to be a company's face (and I don't mean babyface but the marketing image) in the way Cena is, as much as I like him. Nobody else is there, at least at this point.

And I hope The Miz never turns face but he already gets a fair pop, and I don't think it's smarky pops because a lot of the IWC seem to have it in for him. He's like The Rock (not as good obviously) where he is very dislikeable as a heel but has the catchphrases and charisma that make you want to like him anyway.

(Miz mention may seem a little random but I love him and have a feeling he's going all the way to the top over the next three years or so)

 

[masterblaster]

Hey MB, is Christian still with the WWE?

Man I loved that guy

Yeah, Christian returned to WWE in January 2009 after a three year stint in TNA and joined the ECW Brand. I actually really liked Christian's work in TNA and his stint as a genuine main eventer there really helped him.

He had great matches week in and week out with the likes of AJ Styles, Kurt Angle and Samoa Joe and his two World Heavyweight Championship reigns there were memorable. He for whatever reason though left TNA to return to WWE. I think he couldn't handle Vince Russo and TNA's horrible creative. In hindsight though he has made the right decision since TNA has gone to hell after Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff took over.

Christian's second run in WWE has been awesome. He's been having great matches with a variety of younger and experienced talent and pretty much carried the ECW brand on his shoulders alone being a two time ECW Champion over the last year. His main ability though is to make others look good and put the young guys over and he's truly a very selfless worker, quite the contrast from Triple H.

After the ECW brand made way for NXT, he's back on Raw now and will be in the MITB match at Wrestlemania. I'm hoping he wins and cashes in sometime on Edge. That feud is something that many wrestling fans are hoping for. I think after Chris Jericho, Christian has been the best all round performer in WWE and has probably put on more classic matches than anyone on the roster.

 

[GIMH]

I like Christian mb, not quite as much as you but I'd definitely call myself a fan. However I have a feeling you'll be disappointed, I don't think he'll be getting a push towards world title status anytime soon. Just a feeling I have really. I don't think Vince hates him, it's not a story I buy, but I think he wants to continue using him to make young guys look good.

 

[masterblaster]

Regarding John Cena, I think he gets way too much stick from the internet fans. I really do respect his passion for the industry and he comes across as a really stand up guy so I think his success is well deserved. I agree with GIMH and duffer in that even if he gets negative reactions, he at least gets a reaction rather than complete silence which is really the worst thing in pro wrestling.

One thing that I will hold against him though and this is not his fault is the way he is presented. He is a pretty formulaic character who has been pretty bland and predictable for the better part of the last 5 years. His character abandoned everything that made him popular in 2003.

Now I know in a PG environment, you can't do the edgy rapper gimmick but at least I think he should be presented in a new or unique way rather than the super good guy who overcomes the odds time and time again. If Steve Austin could turn heel at Wrestlemania 17, I don't see why John Cena can't turn heel sometime down the road. Look what the heel turn has done for Batista, it's added a completely new element to his game. It might be worth a shot down the road. Even if John Cena were to remain a face for the rest of his career, I think there are ways to freshen up his character.

 

[masterblaster]

I like Christian mb, not quite as much as you but I'd definitely call myself a fan. However I have a feeling you'll be disappointed, I don't think he'll be getting a push towards world title status anytime soon. Just a feeling I have really. I don't think Vince hates him, it's not a story I buy, but I think he wants to continue using him to make young guys look good.

I pretty much agree. I personally think Drew McIntyre is the favourite to win MITB this year, especially how he got into the match in the first place. I think Christian is going to get back into the Intercontinental or United States Championship picture and stay there unfortunately.

 

[GIMH]

On the plus side, a Christian-Miz feud would be immense both in the ring and on the mic. If Christian is staying in the midcard, have them feud for a few months IMO. Could cross over onto NXT in theory as well.

 

[sledger]

I reckon an Edge/Christian or Jericho/Christian feud/reunoin at somepoint this year is inevitable. Though that will probably involve Christian getting a shot at a world title I'd be surprised if he wins it.