Official Pro-Wrestling Thread (WWE, TNA, ROH etc.)

[sledger]

This discussion makes me feel like I went back in time to 2003.

Which is not bad actually, because Smackdown was ace back then.

Smackdown is ace now imo.

 

[GotSpin]

Fair enough, I can go along with that, as you are right that he became a total jobber after that point. His match with Shane McMahon was pretty great though. But Kane aside, I can't think of any others who suffered in a similar vein.

He still put on some good matches but his whole character just died after wards. It's disappointing because I feel Kane was one of those wrestlers that almost every one loved after their own favourite. While Austin was my favourite Kane always came in second. And it's a shame to see all his popularity and momentum go away too nothing. As soon as he became a jobber his physique went to the ****s - though I'm sure his bicep tear had a part in this - and his character was a joke relegated to the mid card.

TBH, I just haven't watched much wrestling in the past years to know any other wrestlers who, publicly on TV, were buried by HHH. As for his backstage role, I can only guess at the countless number of midcard wrestlers in the by gone years of the attitude era who were held back for HHHs push.

 

[Jono]

To be honest I'm not really sure I can think of anyone who I could legitmately say HHH "ruined" the career of. The Jericho example is always cited, and yes it probably did set Jericho back a significant amount, but look at him now, currently he is the top heel in the WWE bar none and a multi-time World Champion. Can you really call that a ruined career? Kane is perhaps different, but even though I strongly advocate the fact that he should have been put over, to suggest that if he had been he would have gone on to become a megastar is a bit tenuous. I've always been a fan of the guy, but like him or not, he's played his part in a series of important angles and matches over the years and is still going, so I'm not really sure you could call his career ruined either.

Being a successful wrestler in pro wrestling, particularly when you're trying to make a name for yourself, is all about momentum. If you're hot at the time (Austin the best example) the world is your oyster.

Kane was hot.

But wrestling fans are fickle, and it doesn't matter how talented you are in the ring, or how good your look is, or how awesome you are on the mic. If you lose momentum and are made to look piss weak in the fans, unless you already have a huge fan base, or have long term support of the bookers, you'll find it difficult. It's a very saturated market place.

Just because Jericho came back again almost 9 years later means **** all. Triple H did all he could to ruin a career. Jericho was talented and patient enough to come back. That doesn't make Triple H any less guilty of what he did.

Booker T could have gone fromt strength to strength in 2003, but he wasn't given that oppiortuntiy.

Funny how no one is really defending Triple H, just going "oh well, yeah he did bad stuff, but it wasn't like he was Hitler. Oh he also had a cool gimmick and awesome merchandising and killer theme songs".

 

[GIMH]

Jono, I think you've misunderstood a few of my points.

Firstly, yeah I do bag a large section of the IWC on here, I do go on wrestling forums and happily take them on though so it's not like I'm doing it 'behind their backs' or whatever. And I've never said or suggested that anyone on here was following any kind of trend - certainly the anti-Flair stuff I've read the past few days is something that is far removed from the IWC, it's not like I disagree with them on everything.

Secondly, with regards to Triple H, my fundamental points is that he doesn't make all of the booking decisions. I believe that some overstate his backstage pull, or fail to look at the bigger picture sometimes. His 'reign of terror' around 03-04 led to evolution, could have he pulled that off if he'd not been dominating anyone and everyone? Arguable to say the least and that stable produced two of the three biggest stars of this generation. Was the booking that long-term or was this just chance? I don't know, and I don't think a lot of the people that speculate on it know either. That's kind of my point. It would be interesting to see what people said about Triple H had he never married Stephanie. He was the top guy before he ever even dated her, becoming the first heel to ever leave Mania with the strap. Is that because of his politicking? Or is it because the people making the booking decisions wanted that to be the case? However much pull you may or may not have, there's only one sheriff in the WWE and that's Vince.

And with regards to 2000 I think you've misinterpreted me - my point is that Triple H made Jericho look like a million dollars in 2000. It wasn't just that he feuded with him. It was that he hung with him. Not just in the way the match was booked (because that would be hypocritical of me!!) but in the way he sold Jericho in that LMS, the hatred he put across for Jericho.

I don't want to go into the rest. I'm not anti-smark for the sake of it. By definition I probably do class as a smark. The reason I bag the IWC is because huge amounts of them think they know how wrestling works, but really have no clue. I've had arguments with people who've claimed Jack Swagger is better at pro-wrestling than John Cena because Jack Swagger "did more moves when they wrestled each other" and these are the people who think they understand the workings of the industry, and it ****s me. There are some GREAT posters on the wrestling forum I visit, and some thoughtful stuff in the comments at 411, it's just often drowned out amongst a whole heap of rubbish.

 

[Jono]

Basically in summary, you either think:

a) Triple H in 2003/04 wasn't that bad; or
b) Triple H in 2003/04 did what he did because it helped elevate Cena and Batista.

You don't need to crush better superstars (and make no mistake, Jericho could have been as big as Cena and is much better in the ring) or half the roster on Raw to make a couple of genuine superstars who sell merchandise.

2003 sucked because eventually there was no one else for Triple H to feud with. The WWE only really got better when Benoit got his push, and even then Triple H couldn't job to Benoit without his mate Shawn also poking his head in there.

Anyway, end of the day, Undertaker, Angle and The Rock managed to be as over as Triple H without needed to crush half the roster. That shows it's not necessary.

I strongly disagree that what was done was better for the WWE, but if you do, we're really going to go in circles.

 

[GIMH]

I disagree that Jericho could ever have been as big as Cena. I love Jericho. I really do. He's my all-time favourite, but I just don't see it. No way of quantifying or proving it and like you say, no desire to go round in circles, but I think you're doing Cena a disservice.

Been good to have some disagreement going on in the thread anyway. Mania certainly makes this thing active

 

[GIMH]

Report: Shawn Michaels Retiring After WrestleMania - eWrestlingNews.com

Some, um, classy comments on that thing

 

[Jarquis]

Some, um, classy comments on that thing

omg wow KBK is my all time fa

lol.

 

[GIMH]

My Mania 19 DVD arrived today, nice and prompt. Kinda wish it hadn't. Promised a mate we'd do a beer and pizza night watching it. It's looking at me though.

Settled for one of my tagged classics that I hadn't watched yet instead, the 99 Survivor Series. Remembered this event as being dross and up until the last match I just watched I was on the money (barring a decent Angle debut) - Jericho V Chyna. I never remembered it being so good! Even Chyna getting the win didn't ruin it. And now E&C and the Hardyz are about to team together, ah, good times. Will continue working forwards in order through 01 soon I think, need to order Backlash & Judgment Day, the shortlived two man power trip and all their awesomeness

 

[sledger]

Secondly, with regards to Triple H, my fundamental points is that he doesn't make all of the booking decisions. I believe that some overstate his backstage pull, or fail to look at the bigger picture sometimes. His 'reign of terror' around 03-04 led to evolution, could have he pulled that off if he'd not been dominating anyone and everyone? Arguable to say the least and that stable produced two of the three biggest stars of this generation. Was the booking that long-term or was this just chance? I don't know, and I don't think a lot of the people that speculate on it know either. That's kind of my point. It would be interesting to see what people said about Triple H had he never married Stephanie. He was the top guy before he ever even dated her, becoming the first heel to ever leave Mania with the strap. Is that because of his politicking? Or is it because the people making the booking decisions wanted that to be the case? However much pull you may or may not have, there's only one sheriff in the WWE and that's Vince.

I think that is the crux of the matter tbh. Although in my mind there is no doubt that HHH has benefited from these "circumstances", I would say it is naive and probably unfair to assume that they are all down to his backstage and various manipulation etc... To a degree he I would say that he has undoubtedly used this to gain the rub for himself. But the bottom line in my mind, is that if this was not good for business the powers that be would not have given him the green light. And as such, the E has remained the dominant force in the industry. To quote loosely quote The Dark Knight, don't go after the mad dog, go after the one who let him off the leash. Though HHH's influence may or may not be overated, he is only as dominant as he is allowed to be.

 

[Jono]

Again, no one is not blaming the WWE bookers either. I don't see how that justifies what Triple H did. If he did anything in 2003 that was good for the business that'd be fine. But he did very little.

A shame too because he was oh so good in pre-2001.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

But wrestling fans are fickle, and it doesn't matter how talented you are in the ring, or how good your look is, or how awesome you are on the mic. If you lose momentum and are made to look piss weak in the fans, unless you already have a huge fan base, or have long term support of the bookers, you'll find it difficult. It's a very saturated market place.

Exactly. That's exactly why HHH would never tap to a good allround performer like Angle or Jericho. I don't care what anyone says, if someone taps out to someone else it makes them look tens time worse then if they got pinned by them. Tapping out to Cena or Benoit was never going to really damage HHH's image because neither of them were the total package like Angle or Jericho are. Pinning someone is just covering someone who is unconscious whilst making someone tap out is making them give up when they are conscious - big difference.

 

[GIMH]

Tapping to someone who is not the total package makes you look weaker than tapping to someone who is, but you're not looking at it logically anyway.

Tapping to Benoit wouldn't make anyone look weak because he was a brutal submission machine, which shows the complete flaw in what you are saying.

In the LMS I keep talking about, Triple H tapped like crazy to the walls. Now obviously that means little in terms of a result but it's not like he just shrugged it off, he put the hold over. Seriously, you're looking for things that aren't there.

 

[masterblaster]

The feud between Triple H and Chris Jericho in 2002 may have set Jericho back at that time, but credit to the man he continually keeps on reinventing himself and today that feud is a distant memory and doesn't really mean much which is great because I agree that Triple H did a lot to damage Chris Jericho's credibility as a main event level performer in 2002.

For the past two years, Chris Jericho has been the best performer in WWE. His character, his in ring work and his matches with Shawn Michaels and Rey Mysterio have been outstanding. Everything he has touched has pretty much become successful and since his break, I really do believe he's become better than ever before. Chris Jericho's so good, even Triple H can't touch him and I think Triple H knows it.

 

[masterblaster]

I find it funny I'm arguing how much of a bitch Triple H is in this thread again. Did it with Master Blaster for a while back in 2004/05. Seems he's changed his mind a lot since then

Few things GIMH. Firstly, "not a big fan" of Triple H vs. Jericho 2002 has to be the biggest understatement of a year. It was the most disgusting piece of **** ever from Triple H. He absolutely buried Jericho at Mania with his quad "on a string" (exact words repeatedly used by ****ing JR as if to make sure every single person knew Jericho was too **** to beat a crippled Triple H). And then there was that Hell in the Cell. Not sure if Jericho got any offence in in that match

Just because people on the internet (which you seem to openly bag a lot GIMH) are well aware of the undeniable bull**** Triple H has pulled backstage, and are often pissed about it doesn't mean you have to go on the other side and defend him. Hogan pulled all sorts of **** backstage. He is still one of the greatest of all time. Triple H is an all-time-great as well. He's also one of the biggest jerks in the business.

I'll openly acknowledge I haven't watched wrestling since 2006, so if he's any good now that's awesome. From what I've seen, he's as **** a face as he was in 2002 though. Can't take him seriously anymore. If it wasn't for his 1998 stuff with DX he'd be a one-trick pony.

I don't really give a **** about Triple H tapping out, I'd just like him to lose clean as a heel for once (back in 2003/04 I'm talking). But I seriously reject the idea that for him to be a top heel he has to never tap out.

Regarding Triple H vs. Jericho in 2000, the way GIMH phrased his statement, it read as if it was Triple H's work that boosted Jericho up to superstardom, as if he carried him in the feud. That's what I was seriously disagreeing with. Yes a feud with the top heel in the business is always going to make you look great. I don't disagree that Jericho "beating him" was a big moment in Jericho's WWE career.

Also, I really disagree with GIMH's comments regarding Kane. It doesn't matter what you think of him, he was mega over and Triple H killed that momentum. That damaged the company and Kane's chance of superstardom.

In closing, Triple H is a bitch.

Yeah, well you know I'm still a fan of the guys earlier work. He's added nothing of value and has done nothing differently since 2001. I just think he's stale and hasn't evolved his character the likes of Chris Jericho and Edge have. When you're stale it baffles me why you still want to have a firm grip over the WWE Championship.

I was getting so pissed off when we were getting the combination of Triple H vs Randy Orton, Triple H vs John Cena and Triple H vs John Cena vs Randy Orton in the main event for the past 2 years. That's the same basic match with the same wrestlers over and over again in every PPV for the past 2 years. Nobody in the mid card was developing on the Raw side and it was the same stale matchups over and over again.

Thankfully we had Edge, Jeff Hardy and CM Punk doing so well on the Smackdown side of things and they were always fresh match ups delivering really high quality matches.

 

[Jono]

Hey MB, is Christian still with the WWE?

Man I loved that guy

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, well you know I'm still a fan of the guys earlier work. He's added nothing of value and has done nothing differently since 2001. I just think he's stale and hasn't evolved his character the likes of Chris Jericho and Edge have. When you're stale it baffles me why you still want to have a firm grip over the WWE Championship.

I was getting so pissed off when we were getting the combination of Triple H vs Randy Orton, Triple H vs John Cena and Triple H vs John Cena vs Randy Orton in the main event for the past 2 years. That's the same basic match with the same wrestlers over and over again in every PPV for the past 2 years. Nobody in the mid card was developing on the Raw side and it was the same stale matchups over and over again.

Thankfully we had Edge, Jeff Hardy and CM Punk doing so well on the Smackdown side of things and they were always fresh match ups delivering really high quality matches.

To be fair, Triple H has only had one run with the title in the last 12 months and that ended 11 months ago. He does appear to be stepping aside a little, he's not been around the title scene at all since July. I'm sure he'll have the belt at some point this year but after going a while without it then it is more understandable. The raw title scene was dull for a lot of last year, though tbf some of the Orton-Cena matches were off the charts, I'm thinking about the I Quit and the Iron Man matches.

Hey MB, is Christian still with the WWE?

Man I loved that guy

He's on the Raw brand, after being ECW champion for most of the last year

 

[wfdu_ben91]

Tapping to someone who is not the total package makes you look weaker than tapping to someone who is, but you're not looking at it logically anyway.

Tapping to Benoit wouldn't make anyone look weak because he was a brutal submission machine, which shows the complete flaw in what you are saying.

In the LMS I keep talking about, Triple H tapped like crazy to the walls. Now obviously that means little in terms of a result but it's not like he just shrugged it off, he put the hold over. Seriously, you're looking for things that aren't there.

OMG.

He wouldn't tapout to Jericho or Angle because they could potentially take his spot as the top dog of the company, which would make it hard for him to get back. All tapping out to Benoit or Cena means is that he puts someone over without doing much harm to his own reputation because neither of them are a legitimate chance of taking his spot.

Tapping out when the referee is done means jack ****.

 

[GIMH]

Cena has no chance of taking his spot?

You do realise that Cena is the top guy in wrestling, right? And much bigger than Angle or Jericho ever have been? So your argument is a complete non-starter.

You can cite this smarky bull**** about how Cena can't go in the ring until the cows come home, it's a complete irrelevance. Cena is the face of pro-wrestling. He sells more merchandise than the rest of the roster combined, sells more merchandise than the whole of TNA. Gets the biggest reactions. To say Triple H doesn't fear him taking his spot, well I'm sure Triple H doesn't fear Cena dropping down a level or two to be the 2nd or 3rd biggest face on Raw.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

Cena the face of wrestling?

I can't remember another top-line good guy that has been boo'ed as much as what Cena has over the past years. You say that Cena is bigger then Angle was? How come when they were feuding when Angle was the bad guy and he was getting more cheers then Cena was?

You never hear any kayfabe stuff about Cena being the greatest wrestler in the world, which used to always be said about HHH.