Official Pro-Wrestling Thread (WWE, TNA, ROH etc.)

[wfdu_ben91]

Because it was Jericho's feud with Triple H in 2000 that first saw him main event a PPV and first got him involved with the big guys. He beat HHH for the title in 2000 only for the decision to be reversed - the win meant nothing but the fact that he would be involved in such an angle did. And then in their LMS, Triple H beat him by half a second and couldn't stand after the match. You don't have to lose to someone to put him over and Jericho shouldn't have won that match, but it was a hell of a lot closer than you'd expect.

Of course Jericho had done a lot by himself to get over, and he went back to the midcard for a while after that, but because of that feud with Triple H he was always credible and could always be taken seriously as a challenger to the guys at the top.

He was way over, but his work with Triple H through the spring and early summer of 2000, culminating in the LMS at Fully Loaded, sent him really on his way. All os a sudden he was tagging with The Rock on Raw and Smackdown main events.

Their feud in 2002 of course was the opposite.

It's one thing to help them up the ladder, but another to do the job once you are both at the top. Why do you think that no one like Jericho, Angle, Guerrero, etc with both charisma and wrestling ability has ever made HHH tap? I can only recall HBK beating HHH once aswell. You are forgetting that Jericho's debut promo was interrupting The Rock aswell.

 

[GIMH]

You're missing my point. I never referenced what happened when Jericho got to the top. What I said was that Triple H was key in helping him get there, by making him look like he was worthy.

Yes, The Rock deserves credit, but I don't think anyone has ever questioned his status as anything but a consumate professional, he put heaps over. The way he passed the torch to Brock was out of this world.

Don't see why it matters whether he tapped or not? You can win wrestling by pinfall as well. Angle has beaten HHH for the title.

 

[GotSpin]

It does matter that HHH never taps out. He's never wanted to look weak and the only way he permits a win against him is after both wrestlers have been beaten to a bloody pulp and his opponent just manages to cling on and pin him.

 

[GIMH]

As I said yesterday. Triple H is one of the top guys. It's important that he looks strong. If he tapped out to everyone, he wouldn't. Pro-wrestling 101 IMO

 

[GotSpin]

There's a difference between tapping out to one of the other top superstars ( e.g. to the ankle lock) or the whole roster.

Wrestling 101 - You can't have guys who believe themselves to be invincible.

The only way HHH lets someone legitimately win against him is after the opponent goes 'through all hell'.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

HHH would never tapout to another worker who has both charisma and wrestling ability because he is too afraid of losing his spot. That's why he only tapped to Benoit (who lacks in charisma but is a great wrestler) and Cena (great entertainer but lacks in wrestling ability) because there is no way that he'd lose his spot to someone who only half fills the bill.

 

[GotSpin]

Yeah I should have added that into my post.

 

[GotSpin]

Forgot how awesome Angle was

YouTube - Kurt Angle dislikes chants

 

[Jono]

As I said yesterday. Triple H is one of the top guys. It's important that he looks strong. If he tapped out to everyone, he wouldn't. Pro-wrestling 101 IMO

Haha, I'm sorry I don't buy that, particularly when you're a heel.

And Jericho was clearly one of the most talented on the roster, he's not "everyone".

 

[GIMH]

There's a difference between tapping out to one of the other top superstars ( e.g. to the ankle lock) or the whole roster.

Wrestling 101 - You can't have guys who believe themselves to be invincible.

The only way HHH lets someone legitimately win against him is after the opponent goes 'through all hell'.

HHH would never tapout to another worker who has both charisma and wrestling ability because he is too afraid of losing his spot. That's why he only tapped to Benoit (who lacks in charisma but is a great wrestler) and Cena (great entertainer but lacks in wrestling ability) because there is no way that he'd lose his spot to someone who only half fills the bill.

Okay I'll address these together.

Firstly, as I said yesterday, Triple H does have influence but the way some people talk about him you'd think he booked every match. Some people on the internet would basically have jobbed Triple H out for the last 8 years or so. When Batista and Cena got their Mania wins over him, they were all the more impressive because of how hard it is to beat Triple H. Benoit looked great making the cerebral assassin tap out - because tapping out does not even remotely fit his character.

As for your point Ben, I'm sorry but it is completely devoid of logic. So it's better to tap out to someone who is a bad wrestler than someone who is the all-round package? On what planet does that make sense?

Of course, I would vehemently disagree that Cena can't wrestle but I've done that one to death, I can't be bothered with it.

But anyway - as influential as Triple H is and as much politicking as he may or may not do, it gets WAY WAY WAY overplayed. He doesn't book every single match, people.

 

[GIMH]

Haha, I'm sorry I don't buy that, particularly when you're a heel.

And Jericho was clearly one of the most talented on the roster, he's not "everyone".

If a heel champion looks strong then it means that much more when the face gets the big win over him, come on, what's not to buy?

Like I say, I'm not a big fan of his run with Jericho in 02 (of course the dynamics there were HHH face Jericho heel) - I'd have no problem with him tapping out to jericho, or Angle, or anyone else with a decent submission finisher. I just take an implication occasionally that he should go round tapping out to everyone who ever has performed a submission move.

What were your thoughts on my points about the Jericho-HHH run in 2000 Jono?

Jericho is my favourite wrestler ever, I much prefer him to Triple H, just FTR. I've just never bought into a lot of the stuff that gets said about the game and it's led to him being hugely underappreciated I reckon.

 

[sledger]

Report: Shawn Michaels Retiring After WrestleMania - eWrestlingNews.com

 

[sledger]

With Corrin on this one, don't see what the obsession with HHH tapping out is. Especially considering that only a select few of those he has feuded with have had a submission as a finishing move anyway. I would agree with regards to him helping get Jericho over as well. Though it was scrapped from the record books etc... I would say Jericho's victory over HHH on RAW for the WWF title was the exact moment when Jericho began his transition from being a popular midcarder to somewhere near the top of the card. Concede that his feud with HHH in 2002 was dreadful though, terrible business.

 

[Jono]

I find it funny I'm arguing how much of a bitch Triple H is in this thread again. Did it with Master Blaster for a while back in 2004/05. Seems he's changed his mind a lot since then

Few things GIMH. Firstly, "not a big fan" of Triple H vs. Jericho 2002 has to be the biggest understatement of a year. It was the most disgusting piece of **** ever from Triple H. He absolutely buried Jericho at Mania with his quad "on a string" (exact words repeatedly used by ****ing JR as if to make sure every single person knew Jericho was too **** to beat a crippled Triple H). And then there was that Hell in the Cell. Not sure if Jericho got any offence in in that match

Just because people on the internet (which you seem to openly bag a lot GIMH) are well aware of the undeniable bull**** Triple H has pulled backstage, and are often pissed about it doesn't mean you have to go on the other side and defend him. Hogan pulled all sorts of **** backstage. He is still one of the greatest of all time. Triple H is an all-time-great as well. He's also one of the biggest jerks in the business.

I'll openly acknowledge I haven't watched wrestling since 2006, so if he's any good now that's awesome. From what I've seen, he's as **** a face as he was in 2002 though. Can't take him seriously anymore. If it wasn't for his 1998 stuff with DX he'd be a one-trick pony.

I don't really give a **** about Triple H tapping out, I'd just like him to lose clean as a heel for once (back in 2003/04 I'm talking). But I seriously reject the idea that for him to be a top heel he has to never tap out.

Regarding Triple H vs. Jericho in 2000, the way GIMH phrased his statement, it read as if it was Triple H's work that boosted Jericho up to superstardom, as if he carried him in the feud. That's what I was seriously disagreeing with. Yes a feud with the top heel in the business is always going to make you look great. I don't disagree that Jericho "beating him" was a big moment in Jericho's WWE career.

Also, I really disagree with GIMH's comments regarding Kane. It doesn't matter what you think of him, he was mega over and Triple H killed that momentum. That damaged the company and Kane's chance of superstardom.

In closing, Triple H is a bitch.

 

[sledger]

Just because people on the internet (which you seem to openly bag a lot GIMH) are well aware of the undeniable bull**** Triple H has pulled backstage, and are often pissed about it doesn't mean you have to go on the other side and defend him.

Tbh I don't think that's why he's doing it.

 

[Jono]

Sorry I phrased that badly, rather doesn't mean that those here are having a go at Triple H for the sake of it or simply following IWC. Triple H doubtlessly ****ed up bad and the WWE paid for it post 2003 with the quality of their upper card.

If GIMH recognises that Triple H was one of the biggest string pullers in 2003/04, and ruined careers, what more is there to add? What is there to defend?

Its' like someone having a go at Hogan's backstage stuff, and the other person saying "yah but he's a legend".

 

[sledger]

Sorry I phrased that badly, rather doesn't mean that those here are having a go at Triple H for the sake of it, and hten defend him.

If GIMH recognises that Triple H was one of the biggest string pullers in 2003/04, and ruined careers, what more is there to add?

Edit: again abdly phrased, one more time.

To be honest I'm not really sure I can think of anyone who I could legitmately say HHH "ruined" the career of. The Jericho example is always cited, and yes it probably did set Jericho back a significant amount, but look at him now, currently he is the top heel in the WWE bar none and a multi-time World Champion. Can you really call that a ruined career? Kane is perhaps different, but even though I strongly advocate the fact that he should have been put over, to suggest that if he had been he would have gone on to become a megastar is a bit tenuous. I've always been a fan of the guy, but like him or not, he's played his part in a series of important angles and matches over the years and is still going, so I'm not really sure you could call his career ruined either.

 

[Agent TBY]

This discussion makes me feel like I went back in time to 2003.

Which is not bad actually, because Smackdown was ace back then.

 

[GotSpin]

Kane pretty much became a jobber for five years after getting buried. Once he became a glorified jobber his character was pretty much dead.

He was easily one of the most popular wrestlers in the early 00's - though obviously not the most popular, but up there in the top 10.

 

[sledger]

Kane pretty much became a jobber for five years after getting buried. Once he became a glorified jobber his character was pretty much dead.

He was easily one of the most popular wrestlers in the early 00's - though obviously not the most popular, but up there in the top 10.

Fair enough, I can go along with that, as you are right that he became a total jobber after that point. His match with Shane McMahon was pretty great though. But Kane aside, I can't think of any others who suffered in a similar vein.