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Official Pro-Wrestling Thread (WWE, TNA, ROH etc.)

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GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Interesting topic. Mania where I believe the last match to have been the best are as follows:

5 - Savage V Hogan
6 - Warrior V Hogan
12 - Hart V Michaels
14 - Austin V Michaels (maybe, not a big fan of the match)
15 - Austin V Rock
17 - Austin V Rock
19 - Angle V Brock is up there
20 - HHH V Michaels V Hewhoshallnotbenamed
23 - Cena V Michaels

9/24, a couple I'm not sold on as well, I may have missed one here or there. Could probably make a case for Mania 24 if you're not a fan of Flair-Michaels

It's important to note that in plenty of the Mania where the main event hasn't been the best match, the top match has come in the middle of the card, for example Mania X or 2000 with the ladder matches. That gives the crowd time to recover and get back into the main event. If you'd stuck a women's match between Michaels-Taker last year and the two title matches that might have worked.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
On the subject of HBK, thought it would be interesting to look at his Mania matches and see where they stand on each card

5, 6 & 7 he was fighting with The Rockers. Can't remember who he wrestled at 5 or 6 but their match with Haku and Barbarian at 7 is quality, you can really tell Shawn was gonna be great if you watch that.

At 8 he jerked the curtain with Tito Santana and it was a very good match. The Savage-Flair title match from that show is a personal favourite and MOTN by some distance. Of the rest though, only Piper-Bret is really better.

At 9, he again jerked the curtain, this time with Tatanka, for the IC belt. It has a screwy finish though that made sense, but it was a good match. The rest of the card was dross, this was MOTN.

At 10 he had that ladder match with Razor Ramon. Consensus is generally divided between this and the Bret-Owen match - I think I just about prefer the ladder match, and in terms of legacy and influence it is right up there.

At 11 he wrestled Diesel for the title, but it wasn't the main event. It was an awful Mania and this was the only watchable match that I can think of offhand. 3/4 so far.

At 12 him and Bret had their classic iron man match. Some consider it the greatest of all-time, some consider it overrated. I'm in the middle - it's very good but I personally prefer the storytelling Rock and Triple H put on in their Iron Man match four years later - a rare opinion, but there you go. Best match on the card though, 4/5.

Lost his smile and missed 13, poor Shawn :( :ph34r:

As I said above, I'd say at 14 him and Austin put on the match of the night. Certainly it could have been better, their forgotten classic at KOTR 97 when they were tag champs was better. Watching the match again now and knowing the pain Shawn was in makes you appreciate it so much more. 14 was a strange Mania in that it's good but there's not a lot that hugely stands out. You could make cases for Taker-Kane and the Outlaws and Foley-Funk but for me it's Michaels-Austin. 5/6

Missed the next four through injury.

At 19 he wrestled Jericho in a classic, picked up the win which I know angered some people (not Jericho though, which begs the question as to why anyone else cares) but there's no doubt it was a classic. Haven't watched that Mania in years (as I said in the thread the other day I've just picked up the DVD) - I think you can justifiably make a case for the Michaels match but as I said above could also give it to Angle-Brock. Gonna give it half a point. 5.5/7

20, don't think there's any doubt about it, an all-time classi. 6.5/8

21, the Mania that saw two new stars reach the top but Michaels-Angle stole the show. An all-time classic. 7.5/9

At 22 he wrestled Vince and it probably wasn't the best match. That goes to Triple H-Cena which belongs on my list above and I forgot it. Good match though. 7.5/10

At 23 him and Cena had a classic, 8.5/11

24 is one that I know polarises opinion. It has lost meaning now that Flair is busting himself open in TNA. Nonetheless for everything it meant at the time and the classic storytelling it's hard to look past it. 9.5/12

At 25 I think you'd be crazy to argue against HBK-Taker being the best, it's clearcut more than any of the above.

So in 13 Manias as a singles wreslter, I give him 10 outright and one where he shares the honour. Incredible really. Of course others will have different preferences but it's no secret as to why I think Shawn is the greatest ever and one of my personal favourites to boot. :)
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Interesting. I think I would rate HBK vs Austin at 14 higher than Rock vs Austin at 15, probably because what I now know about HBK though like you say. I would also say the best match from WM22 was Foley vs Edge. Cena vs HHH was alright, but didn't feel much like a WM main event somehow, the build up was a bit too forgettable for mine. Whilst HBK and Vince was definitely not the best match on the card, which was to be expected given that Vince was in it I suppose, that was definitely for me the most interesting match on there, or at least the one I cared about the most. Agree with pretty much everything else though.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
So in 13 Manias as a singles wreslter, I give him 10 outright and one where he shares the honour. Incredible really. Of course others will have different preferences but it's no secret as to why I think Shawn is the greatest ever and one of my personal favourites to boot.
I think that really goes to show what an incredible performer is he is, particularly given the fact that apart from a few occasions, the show has rarely been centered around him.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Interesting. I think I would rate HBK vs Austin at 14 higher than Rock vs Austin at 15, probably because what I now know about HBK though like you say. I would also say the best match from WM22 was Foley vs Edge. Cena vs HHH was alright, but didn't feel much like a WM main event somehow, the build up was a bit too forgettable for mine. Whilst HBK and Vince was definitely not the best match on the card, which was to be expected given that Vince was in it I suppose, that was definitely for me the most interesting match on there, or at least the one I cared about the most. Agree with pretty much everything else though.
Yeah, I'd rate Austin-HBK higher than Austin-Rock, but there are at least a couple of other matches worth watching on 14. 15 is atrocious.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Yeah, I'd rate Austin-HBK higher than Austin-Rock, but there are at least a couple of other matches worth watching on 14. 15 is atrocious.
Haha, just had a quick look back at the card and yeah it is terrible. Never remember it being that bad until I go back and check. I think the fact that Rock/Austin is on it just blurs my memory into thinking that the rest of the card must be alright too. Struggle to believe that they could not have found anything better for Taker than to put him in a match with the Bossman ffs.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Shows you how big the Beckham brand is worldwide really.

Also did you catch the ads for the UK tour? Sheamus proclaimed himself bigger than Sinead O'Connor. Heady heights tstl.
 

Jarquis

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Just flicked over to Impact and caught the end of AJ vs Jeff.
What's with the platform all the way down to the ring?
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Just flicked over to Impact and caught the end of AJ vs Jeff.
What's with the platform all the way down to the ring?
Don't think there was any particular reason for it. Most promotions use them at some time or another, though I'm not sure why. WCW and ECW used to use them quite frequently back in the day iirc. Have fond memories of Raven botching his run in to save Tommy Dreamer and Taz going nuts on one of them and throwing some guy of the side.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
I heard that the reason for the ramp was because the old guys couldn't get up into the ring (i.e Hogan)
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Really wish Ric Flair would just **** off. His bleeding all over the place was just cringeworthy, you belong in a home ffs.
 

masterblaster

International Captain
TNA was horrible this week. The blood in TNA is too over the top with Flair and Angle just being busted open. It doesn't do anything and it doesn't add anything. The entire show gave me a headache. Everything's too fast paced, nothing's logical, too much yelling and cursing and shock television for the sake of shock television.

There is no pacing or good production in their shows it seems like they are throwing everything against the wall and seeing what sticks. It's not 1999 anymore. An 'Attitude' type product will not appeal to anyone because it's so much harder to shock and surprise people now a days. We've seen it all and it's been done.

I actually really like 'family friendly' WWE. At least with WWE on I'm not embarassed now to be a wrestling fan. The 'family friendly' approach to WWE has guaranteed a few things which include less cringeworthy angles, less lame storylines, a lack of unneccessary cursing and gore and a greater emphasis on athletic competition and in ring storytelling. I don't understand why wrestling fans today want to go back to the 'Attitude' era. Sure the era was great, but for that time. Everyone has moved on since then and it's not 1999 anymore. People should get with the times.
 
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sledger

Spanish_Vicente
TNA was horrible this week. The blood in TNA is too over the top with Flair and Angle just being busted open. It doesn't do anything and it doesn't add anything. The entire show gave me a headache. Everything's too fast paced, nothing's logical, too much yelling and cursing and shock television for the sake of shock television.
Haha, it's funny you should say that, as whilst I was watching the other night I was talking to GIMH on MSN and I said nearly the exact same thing. The amount of YELLING AND SCREAMING in nearly every single promo was not only annoying but incredibly repetitive. Not sure who's writing the promos at the moment, but they seem to only know one way of doing them...THE OVER THE TOP INCREDIBLY ANGRY/INSANE APPROACH. Could understand if you had a guy who did them this way because of his character or whatever, or even if you just got one of these a night. But when literally every last promo is done like this it's just awful, amateur like.
 

masterblaster

International Captain
Agreed, it's awful. TNA only have to watch a cool and calm Chris Jericho promo or a passionate, realistic Shawn Michaels promo or a serious, methodical promo that CM Punk delivers to know what it really takes to deliver an effective promo.

Look at Steve Austin and the promo he delivered this past Monday on Raw. He made it sound so natural and realistic that you couldn't help but admire it. The greats show you how to deliver an effective promo. The yelling and screaming doesn't do it for me.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Agreed, it's awful. TNA only have to watch a cool and calm Chris Jericho promo or a passionate, realistic Shawn Michaels promo or a serious, methodical promo that CM Punk delivers to know what it really takes to deliver an effective promo.

Look at Steve Austin and the promo he delivered this past Monday on Raw. He made it sound so natural and realistic that you couldn't help but admire it. The greats show you how to deliver an effective promo. The yelling and screaming doesn't do it for me.
Yeah, largely in agreement. I don't mind an angry promo if it's what's needed. Always thought Foley was quite decent at those sorts actually. But when you see Ric Flair gyrating violently and busting himself open and just ranting and raving like an idiot it's just horrible. And then you cut backstage....to Abyss with Jeremy Borash...who does the exact same thing. I know to an extent Abyss should be allowed to get away with this, as he is the "insane nutjob" or whatever, but it's just so totally unbelieveable. If they want to make someone look a bit of a weirdo then take a look at the early Mankind promos Foley did ffs. The whole Kennedy/Anderson and Kurt Angle thing was just dreadful as well, I know it's the USA, but holy crap how many times have we seen these awful pseudo-patriotic storylines? They are as a rule, always horrible, and this is not even close to an exception. Particularly seeing as these types of angles have usually only been used to put over really lower/midcard performers who then tank massively, so why the hell they are putting Mr Kennedy who is probably one of their brightest prospects into one. And another thing (didn't mean to rant this much) is the horrible use of Eric Young, his character was one of the better and more fresh parts of TNA before Hogan came in, now he is being wasted horribly in order to make up the numbers/carry the matches for the whole Nash/Hall/Waltman thing, and it's just awful. The more I think about it the more it annoys me. And this is the credible alternative to WWE? Sorry, it's not even a credible alternative to what TNA was about 4 months ago.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Agree with you both on the most part except that you can't go wrong with a ranting and raving Ric Flair. It was the bleeding I could have done without. Sad state of affairs when someone who is practically a pensioner is the best promo guy in the company.
 
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