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*Official* England in West Indies

Woodster

International Captain
Looks like its Bopara for Flintoff given Strauss' comments about Ian Bell. Would seem to be Harmison vs Khan for a spot as well.



Swann to play
A more exciting selection playing Bopara ahead of Bell, although I wouldn't be too disgruntled should Bell return quicker than anticipated. I actually think Bopara's handy little medium pacers will help him when they come to pick the team, especially with Freddie being the absentee, and us going in with only 4 specialist bowlers.

This Barbados pitch is promising to offer some life to the quicker bowlers, and for that reason, I hope Harmy gets the nod.
 

ozone

First Class Debutant
This Barbados pitch is promising to offer some life to the quicker bowlers, and for that reason, I hope Harmy gets the nod.
Rightly or wrongly, I think it is very unlikely that Harmison will be dropped for this test TBH. With Flintoff missing, dropping Harmison would leave us without any 'hit-the-deck' bowlers which, IMO, the selectors will look to avoid.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Rightly or wrongly, I think it is very unlikely that Harmison will be dropped for this test TBH. With Flintoff missing, dropping Harmison would leave us without any 'hit-the-deck' bowlers which, IMO, the selectors will look to avoid.
Whatever a "hit-the-deck" bowler actually is. No-one's ever really defined it. All bowlers hit the deck, some at faster speeds than others, some from greater height than others, some losing more pace off the deck than others, some getting the deck to make the ball do more than others, some getting the ball to do more before hitting the deck than others...

But one sure reality is that unless you plan on bowling Full-Tosses every ball, you're a hit-the-deck bowler if you're a bowler.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Glad to see that it looks like Bopara is going to play a head of Bell. Maybe England and their selections is actaully turning a corner.
I doubt it - one good decision (which it's very debateable that Bopara over Bell is TBH) has been made before now.

The errors still tend to remain in the majority.
 

oitoitoi

State Vice-Captain
Whatever a "hit-the-deck" bowler actually is. No-one's ever really defined it. All bowlers hit the deck, some at faster speeds than others, some from greater height than others, some losing more pace off the deck than others, some getting the deck to make the ball do more than others, some getting the ball to do more before hitting the deck than others...

But one sure reality is that unless you plan on bowling Full-Tosses every ball, you're a hit-the-deck bowler if you're a bowler.

Agreed, it's just tv commentary bull**** jargon. Like when Mark Nicholas says you can 'sense' some nonsense.
 

FBU

International Debutant
Whatever a "hit-the-deck" bowler actually is. No-one's ever really defined it. All bowlers hit the deck, some at faster speeds than others, some from greater height than others, some losing more pace off the deck than others, some getting the deck to make the ball do more than others, some getting the ball to do more before hitting the deck than others...

But one sure reality is that unless you plan on bowling Full-Tosses every ball, you're a hit-the-deck bowler if you're a bowler.
Isn't there a difference between a skiddier bowler than one who bangs it into the wicket? Wouldn't the bowlers who lose more pace off the deck be the ones who are banging it in. If all the bowlers bowled at say 85mph the keeper would find the ball coming into his gloves faster off the skiddier bowler.
 

roseboy64

Cricket Web Content Updater
Powell's a hit the deck bowler while Edwards skids. Anyway, same XI for the WI from all reports. Powell and Smith on tenterhooks. No contribution and they're out.
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
Powell's a hit the deck bowler while Edwards skids. Anyway, same XI for the WI from all reports. Powell and Smith on tenterhooks. No contribution and they're out.
Powell better get some runs again then...

Bit harsh on Smith though. His looked the part and more accomplished then what has gone before him. He just has a nasty habit of doing some stupid stuff at crucial junctures of the game and criminally when his set. He should be given the series at least. Ryan Hinds would be the man I'm looking at, international number 4. :laugh: (cue century...)
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Isn't there a difference between a skiddier bowler than one who bangs it into the wicket? Wouldn't the bowlers who lose more pace off the deck be the ones who are banging it in. If all the bowlers bowled at say 85mph the keeper would find the ball coming into his gloves faster off the skiddier bowler.
The point is that it's not that one is "hit-the-deck" and one is "skiddy". There's a gradual continuum from one extreme to the other and there's no way to say at which point one becomes the other.

A bowler can be more "skiddy" and more(\less) "bang-it-in" (there must be a better way of describing it than that too - as I say, all bowlers bang it in to some degree, the point is that the angle the ball takes with the pitch the pivot is more acute the greater the height it comes from) but they can't be expressly one or the other.

And it's not, neccessarily, the case that the more acute the angle the less pace you lose off the pitch, though I'd say I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some sort of correlation.
 

Uppercut

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The point is that it's not that one is "hit-the-deck" and one is "skiddy". There's a gradual continuum from one extreme to the other and there's no way to say at which point one becomes the other.

A bowler can be more "skiddy" and more(\less) "bang-it-in" (there must be a better way of describing it than that too - as I say, all bowlers bang it in to some degree, the point is that the angle the ball takes with the pitch the pivot is more acute the greater the height it comes from) but they can't be expressly one or the other.

And it's not, neccessarily, the case that the more acute the angle the less pace you lose off the pitch, though I'd say I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some sort of correlation.
Had an interesting discussion with Manee on this a while back- the greater a height you come from, the less the horizontal component is affected by pitching, so you actually lose less pace. On the other hand, if you're coming from a lower height, the ball has less distance to travel. Typically, how much pace you have depends on the pitch. Skiddy bowlers can exploit grassy surfaces, taller ones hard, bouncy tracks. Basically, exactly what you'd expect.
 

oitoitoi

State Vice-Captain
I really don't understand how they're leaving out Simmons, Smith is dreadful. I really want to see Barath given a chance at the top of the order. Hinds probably deserves another chance.
 

albo97056

U19 Cricketer
Had an interesting discussion with Manee on this a while back- the greater a height you come from, the less the horizontal component is affected by pitching, so you actually lose less pace. On the other hand, if you're coming from a lower height, the ball has less distance to travel. Typically, how much pace you have depends on the pitch. Skiddy bowlers can exploit grassy surfaces, taller ones hard, bouncy tracks. Basically, exactly what you'd expect.
Dont quite understand this. Surely the taller you are, the greater the change in direction off the pitch and therefore the more energy that is lost. This can be demonstrated by throwing a ball into a wall. If you throw it sideways so it just brushes the wall, it loses very little speed. If you stand perpendicular to the wall and throw it straight at it, the ball will bounce back a bit, but basically just plop down at your feet due to the massive energy loss during the change in direction.
 

Uppercut

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Dont quite understand this. Surely the taller you are, the greater the change in direction off the pitch and therefore the more energy that is lost. This can be demonstrated by throwing a ball into a wall. If you throw it sideways so it just brushes the wall, it loses very little speed. If you stand perpendicular to the wall and throw it straight at it, the ball will bounce back a bit, but basically just plop down at your feet due to the massive energy loss during the change in direction.
Yeah that's right, but I'm only talking about velocity in terms of how long it takes to reach the batsman i.e. the horizontal component. In terms of it's actual speed, regardless of direction, you're right. And i think you're probably right regardless, but that's what was discussed.
 

albo97056

U19 Cricketer
Yeah that's right, but I'm only talking about velocity in terms of how long it takes to reach the batsman i.e. the horizontal component. In terms of it's actual speed, regardless of direction, you're right. And i think you're probably right regardless, but that's what was discussed.
Ok I see what you're getting at. Im not quite sure how speed guns work in this respect, whether they take into acount the directional aspect or just speed. This is why I would prefer the average speed over the whole length of the pitch being used for the speedo instead of release speed. It may look cool seeing 100mph, but it's misleading and doesnt reflect the conditions.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Ok I see what you're getting at. Im not quite sure how speed guns work in this respect, whether they take into acount the directional aspect or just speed. This is why I would prefer the average speed over the whole length of the pitch being used for the speedo instead of release speed. It may look cool seeing 100mph, but it's misleading and doesnt reflect the conditions.
The speedgun takes account only of speed out of the hand. I've often said it'd be very interesting to see both speed out of the hand and speed as the ball hits the batsman, because the latter has also been available since HawkEye's creation. And maybe reaction-time, which is of course the most important thing of all.

Anyway, Strauss wins the toss and will bat first. Sidebottom for Harmison is confirmed, as of course are Ambrose for Prior and Bopara for Flintoff.
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
'Hard and bouncy track' say Cricinfo

If Harmison has been dropped on his performances in the last two Tests that's the most ****ing idiotic selection since... the first Test... when Bell and Donkey Panesar were picked.
 

Uppercut

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If Harmison has been dropped on his performances in the last two Tests that's the most ****ing idiotic selection since... the first Test... when Bell and Donkey Panesar were picked.
However, if he's been dropped on his performances over the past five years, it's a perfectly reasonable decision.
 

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