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*Official* England in West Indies

ozone

First Class Debutant
Yes quite possibly. That certainly becomes a matter of opinion, but certainly indications are suggesting he is struggling to reach those heights again, although I, like the selectors, am not quite ready to write him off just yet.
Of course, this is all IMO, but surely Harmison has had enough chances to prove he is not capable of performing to the heights, even of the '05 Ashes? Until recently, I held the same opinions that you seem to, but I think that he has now had enough chances to perform, or even show a glimpse of the standards of 4/5 years ago.
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Ridiculous that there's still people out there defending Harmison.
Ridiculous that there are people saying he should get dropped based on his performance in the previous Test when people like Boycott who have a clue what they're talking about said he bowled well. I don't know what people expect him to do when he's not played on a favourable pitch in ages.

There's no point picking anyone if they're injured, injury is the only reason for anyone in the last Test to be dropped as I keep saying .
 

Woodster

International Captain
Ridiculous that there are people saying he should get dropped based on his performance in the previous Test when people like Boycott who have a clue what they're talking about said he bowled well. I don't know what people expect him to do when he's not played on a favourable pitch in ages.

There's no point picking anyone if they're injured, injury is the only reason for anyone in the last Test to be dropped as I keep saying .
Yes, showed enough in the last Test to warrant his inclusion on Thursday, imo.
 

Woodster

International Captain
Of course, this is all IMO, but surely Harmison has had enough chances to prove he is not capable of performing to the heights, even of the '05 Ashes? Until recently, I held the same opinions that you seem to, but I think that he has now had enough chances to perform, or even show a glimpse of the standards of 4/5 years ago.
Perhaps he has. Yet his outstanding form for Durham, that led them to the County Championship last season, just continues to suggest that when he's in the right physical shape, has the overs in his legs, that he troubles the best. I appreciate this is domestic cricket and not Test cricket.

To continue searching for this form, he must do better when he is not on top form, and at least chip in with testing spells and important wickets.
 

ozone

First Class Debutant
To continue searching for this form, he must do better when he is not on top form, and at least chip in with testing spells and important wickets.
If he was doing this, I would have no problems with him being a fixture in the side, but the point is, he hasn't, and hasn't done for a long time.

And @ Scaly, Harmison didn't bowl badly in the last game, but he wasn't exactly setting the world alight. If he was unfit going into the test, the selectors obviously need to be questioned for selecting him. However, I think it is likely that he was fit at the start of the match, picked up a stomach bug which led to him bowling poorly in the first innings, and then bowled OK when fit(ter) in the second.

If he was dropped for the forthcoming test, I would fully understand the logic (assuming it is Sidebottom that comes in), as in a four man attack, they may feel more comfortable with a bowler able to keep things tight than risk having Harmison bowling **** and getting hit about.
 

alw1971

Cricket Spectator
My worry is that when fit it seems to be Sidebottom who knocks over the openers in test cricket and not Harmison?! If Harmison cannot knock over the occasional top order batsman cheaply then he should be out! If Harmison cannot bowl in the late 80's (that's what he was picked for!) then we had best start looking quickly for a replacement or we are not going to bowl teams out twice! Some bowlers may be expensive but if they can take wickets then they must have a chance? Harmison now has too many if's and but and carries too much baggage! He's a well paid professional bowler and therefore should live and die by his performances!(not literally!)

He was number one a long time ago but never again, look to the future while the team is not performing and maybe in 12 months things may come together?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
But Richard, these stats do not include the dropped chances off his bowling, so presuming they count as wickets (as you use the same theory for batsmen that give a chance being classed as out) surely his average will plummet ? :)
No, not at all. Harmison has had no undue number of catches dropped off his bowling. If he had, I'd naturally have made regular mention of that.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Ridiculous that there are people saying he should get dropped based on his performance in the previous Test when people like Boycott who have a clue what they're talking about said he bowled well. I don't know what people expect him to do when he's not played on a favourable pitch in ages.
There's essentially no such thing as a favourable pitch for Harmison, he doesn't have the ability to exploit very many surfaces.

The previous Test - a fairly uneven surface - is about as close as you'll get to a Harmison-friendly surface. Anyone seriously suggesting he bowled well in that Test actually doesn't have a clue what they're on about, not does.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Harmy's continuous flirtation with the Test side despite some real below par performances over the last few years are understandable because of what he does bring to the side should he find his rhythm and be delivering steepling balls around the 90mph mark.
Apart from the fact that these days are and always have been rare... even on the occasions they do come along, such bowling won't dismiss very many good batsmen. Most will find it uncomfortable, yes; many will be regularly caught in two minds about whether to go back or forward, yes. But this sort of bowling doesn't, in itself, get good batsmen out all that often. To do that you have to pitch the ball up and get it to do something.

Nor, contrary to certain assertations, will it make bowlers at the other end more likely to get wickets, as demonstrated by the fact that other bowlers have been as successful without Harmison bowling like this as they have with.
 

Woodster

International Captain
The previous Test - a fairly uneven surface - is about as close as you'll get to a Harmison-friendly surface. Anyone seriously suggesting he bowled well in that Test actually doesn't have a clue what they're on about, not does.
Harmy clearly loves the hard, bouncy tracks that are seemingly out of fashion with groundsman the world over now.

I don't think his performance in the last Test was as clear as you're suggesting. No it wasn't classic Harmison of 2004, but he did show a lot of fight, bowled with decent pace and in fairly decent areas. Don't think anyone can say he bowled particularly badly.
 

Woodster

International Captain
If he was doing this, I would have no problems with him being a fixture in the side, but the point is, he hasn't, and hasn't done for a long time.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you there. It is the potential of what he can do that keeps the selectors including him. As I said, whether that is enough for some people, or whether he does not do it half as much as is required, is open to people's opinions.
 

FBU

International Debutant
Harmison has said that there are other 80mph bowlers better than him but considers himself the best at 90mph. We hardly see that anymore as he just doesn't seem to be match fit. His bowling in the last Test against SA was a carry on from his Durham bowling but then he had a break and everything went downhill after that.

At one stage Harmison was kept in the team whatever the wicket but lately he has been dropped when the captain and coach think the wickets are flat. I really don't think much of horses for courses selection. You pick your 5 bowlers who all offer something different and maybe one or two bowlers will prosper with a bit of help from the others in a particular Test and then different bowlers in the next one.

How the captain and coach can predict wickets I don't know. They can only tell once the match has started and then there is also the weather. Picking someone just because they are quite good at reverse swing only to find out with rain around and a damp outfield it doesn't come into the picture. They don't know if the wicket is going to break up or have uneven bounce so I don't see horses for courses a good idea. Strauss seems to like the idea. Then you have the uncertainity among the bowlers.
 

Bonnie Prince C

U19 12th Man
Sorry if I am just covering over old ground here. Just joined today.

I am interested to see what England do in the next test.

I think the team will (should) look something like this:

A Cook - no problem with either of the openers. Both been in some sort of form recently. Do not think there is a better opening partnership for England.
A Strauss
O Shah - Do not think England will or should drop him. Cannot really comment about his test career so far but off to a decent start.
K Pietersen - Well...
P Collingwood - 100 in the last match not going to be and shouldn't be dropped, could maybe see him being moved down to 6.
I Bell (R Bopara) - I have the awful feeling Bell will be brought in cause of what a joke the England selectors are. However, I think Bopara should be brought in. I think Bopara is a good young talent and Bell needs to learn to play in the first innings before he should be allowed back into the test arena.
T Ambrose (S Davies) - Ambrose is dire. Enough said.
S Broad - Need his batting as much as his bowling with Ambrose at 7. Just propping him up instead of Flintoff.
G Swann - 8 wickets in the last match and why would he hold off on surgery if he wasnt going to be picked.
S Harmison (A Khan) - Would be surprised if Harmison is dropped but think that Khan should be brought in. A seamer who has actually taken wickets on this tour needs to be taken advantage of. Plus Harmison just isnt cutting it, I would say he is improving but just not there.
J Anderson - you know what you're going to get with Jimmy. He will be very dangerous if he can get any sort of movement.

Really whatever line up they put out the top 6 really needs to perform.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Well I wouldn't be selecting anyone from the Lions, can't bat against piechuckers, can't bowl full stop.

In saying that, Trotts a gun. Pick him, hez awwsum.

Jimmeh A to take a five-fer, Taylor to do the same, Bell to get killed, Colly to ton up.
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
Yes, showed enough in the last Test to warrant his inclusion on Thursday, imo.
Poor indictment on the team if a guy who couldn't even bowl at the stumps at the most crucial juncture of the game did enough to warrant another go. That spell along should have been the death knell for him.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Harmison has said that there are other 80mph bowlers better than him but considers himself the best at 90mph. We hardly see that anymore as he just doesn't seem to be match fit. His bowling in the last Test against SA was a carry on from his Durham bowling but then he had a break and everything went downhill after that.

At one stage Harmison was kept in the team whatever the wicket but lately he has been dropped when the captain and coach think the wickets are flat. I really don't think much of horses for courses selection. You pick your 5 bowlers who all offer something different and maybe one or two bowlers will prosper with a bit of help from the others in a particular Test and then different bowlers in the next one.

How the captain and coach can predict wickets I don't know. They can only tell once the match has started and then there is also the weather. Picking someone just because they are quite good at reverse swing only to find out with rain around and a damp outfield it doesn't come into the picture. They don't know if the wicket is going to break up or have uneven bounce so I don't see horses for courses a good idea. Strauss seems to like the idea. Then you have the uncertainity among the bowlers.
Most pitches you can tell at least to some extent how they're going to play beforehand, and if you're a good reader of a pitch you can often tell with near exactness. From time to time you'll get a surface that confounds everyone (the last Test, for instance) but that's pretty rare.

Purely and simply, your best bowlers can (don't neccessarily always) change according to conditions. If you've got two good fingerspinners it'd be madness not to play both of them on a turner, but equally there's no point whatsoever playing either on a green deck that's clearly going to offer them nothing and other bowlers plenty. And vice-versa for a seamer who doesn't swing it much and doesn't get it to do much off a deck with no grass on but will always exploit anything that's there if there's just a bit in it off the seam.

Obviously, you hope that someone who can bowl reverse-swing well can also bowl conventional-swing well, and vice-versa. If they can't, you should be looking not to swap them around but to help them learn to use the other method. If you can bowl one, you can bowl the other if you practice enough. Swing and the pitch are two completely different things.

Equally obviously, the best bowlers can exploit almost any pitch. A high-class seamer, or a really top-notch wristspinner (the once-in-several-generation types), should be selected regardless of pitch or atmospheric conditions when fit, but such bowlers aren't extraordinarily common and you can't expect more than a couple of them in one team at a time.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Harmy clearly loves the hard, bouncy tracks that are seemingly out of fashion with groundsman the world over now.
Much as plenty of decks currently tend to be slower and lower than what you'd call the halfway-mark, there's still enough of them with reasonably high bounce and speed. And I've seen Harmison bowl on more than one of such things and, bowling as he usually does, he's still going to be completely ineffective, because he just doesn't do much with the ball.

Good batsmen can simply camp on the back-foot to him and play him from the crease. You almost never see top-quality batsmen simply bounced out - it just doesn't happen, except on truly lightning pitches like you used to see at The WACA (and pretty much nowhere else).
 

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