**Official** England in New Zealand

[Flem274*]

Well, I don't think he was TBH.

Anyway - will simply say I don't see Vincent being a success as a Test opener, no chance. I don't particularly see Cumming being either, and certainly not How, but I think Bell and Papps are both a decent chance at being, and Bell is now about the right sort of age to be entering his prime, so hopefully he might kick-on.

Perth season 2000/2001






I just had to be the smartarse.

 

[Prince EWS]

Perth season 2000/2001






I just had to be the smartarse.

Being a success is about more than doing well in one match. I don't think it means he's been a success as a test opener at all really; far from it in fact.

I just had to be the smarterarse.

 

[Flem274*]

Well, all we are to judge him on is his posts. And what I can make for that is that he's an overtly patriotic cheerleader. Whether you like that or not, that's my opinion of him.

Regardless, you were sticking your beak in where it wasn't needed. But that's hardly new ground for you, is it?

What I thought myself actualy. Could be wrong though.

Now who was better? Hussain or Hayden?...

 

[Flem274*]

Being a success is about more than doing well in one match. I don't think it means he's been a success as a test opener at all really; far from it in fact.

I just had to be the smarterarse.

Haha

TBH until he starts hitting a reasonable percentage of boundaries along the ground I don't see him being a success at test or ODI level for a decent length of time. He always seems to hit on the up and I'm sure if he played along the ground more he'd score more runs.

Oh and Richard I disagree about How, you can't judge a player from 6 or so games when they're only 26 at present and played all those matches >25 and have around ten years ahead of them. I agree about Papps though but TBH he shouldn't be picked atm as he isn't exactly setting the world on fire at FC level atm.

 

[Prince EWS]

Haha

TBH until he starts hitting a reasonable percentage of boundaries along the ground I don't see him being a success at test or ODI level for a decent length of time. He always seems to hit on the up and I'm sure if he played along the ground more he'd score more runs.

Oh and Richard I disagree about How, you can't judge a player from 6 or so games when they're only 26 at present and played all those matches >25 and have around ten years ahead of them. I agree about Papps though but TBH he shouldn't be picked atm as he isn't exactly setting the world on fire at FC level atm.

I think Richard's opinion of How would be more based on the 59 first class matches he has played for an average of 32 than his 6 tests.

 

[Flem274*]

I think Richard's opinion of How would be more based on the 59 first class matches he has played for an average of 32 than his 6 tests.

Truee but once again, all the time in the world to improve it.

I was shocked to find that alot of the current 22 average around 35 in FC cricket. How some of them were picked ahead of much better candidates (e.g. Taylor and Vincent ahead of Ryder, Broom, Nicol, Hay etc etc)

 

[Richard]

I think Richard's opinion of How would be more based on the 59 first class matches he has played for an average of 32 than his 6 tests.

Yep.

Sure, How's probably better than most Kiwi openers but really I just don't see any point at all in ever picking him ahead of Papps (or Bell) at the current time. 32 is a poor average for a specialist batsman and it's been no surprise he's looked totally out-of-depth in his Tests so far.

I presume Cumming will be dropped soon - disappointing for him to fail against Bangladesh - and I very much hope it's Papps, not How, that comes in.

 

[Flem274*]

Yep.

Sure, How's probably better than most Kiwi openers but really I just don't see any point at all in ever picking him ahead of Papps (or Bell) at the current time. 32 is a poor average for a specialist batsman and it's been no surprise he's looked totally out-of-depth in his Tests so far.

I presume Cumming will be dropped soon - disappointing for him to fail against Bangladesh - and I very much hope it's Papps, not How, that comes in.

But Papps hasn't done much since his return to domestic cricket apart from a List A hundred. How is obviously in much better form, has potential, and therefore should be picked ahead of Papps who will probably fail again because his form is fairly mediocre and if he has one more failure i think that will be the final nail in the coffin for his career, rugby meatheads would hang him from the rafters. Its better he gets some form under his belt, learns how to play short pitched fast bowling and then if someone fails, pick him.

Or should we not reward good form and pick guys that are down in the doldrums and ruin their confidence as well?

 

[Richard]

I'm certainly never, ever in favour of picking out-of-form players, and if Papps hasn't done much in FC cricket this season then his non-selection would be fair enough.

But that's not to say I support the notion of picking a player just because he's in-form - that's a horrible way to go, too.

If How's been scoring in domestic cricket this season, probably fair enough to give him the gig (but I'd still envisage Hoggard and Sidebottom dismantling him once more). Shame if Papps hasn't, though.

 

[NUFAN]

I presume Cumming will be dropped soon - disappointing for him to fail against Bangladesh - and I very much hope it's Papps, not How, that comes in.

I felt that a Cumming 42 was a normal players 84.

 

[Captain Cricket]

Nasser Hussain but despite his age I still think Hayden has more to prove.

 

[Bahnz]

I was shocked to find that alot of the current 22 average around 35 in FC cricket. How some of them were picked ahead of much better candidates (e.g. Taylor and Vincent ahead of Ryder, Broom, Nicol, Hay etc etc)

Well, we all know why Ryder hasn't been picked yet, Broom and Nicol are both fairly up and down players, with only marginally superior averages and neither of whom have been particularly impressive this season. And Hay's only been around for a year so it's no surprise he hasn't been picked yet. Realistically I don't think there have been many players outside of the team who've made a convincing case for selection based on domestic form.

 

[Perm]

It wasn't in this thread, myself and Voltman have a loooooooong history, going back much further than said comment (and far, far more his fault than mine).

Haha, such a pathetic thing to say. Stop acting like a 5 year old FFS.

 

[Richard]

It's neither pathetic nor 5-year-old-esque. It's the truth of the matter. I don't dislike people for no good reason.

 

[Flem274*]

Well, we all know why Ryder hasn't been picked yet, Broom and Nicol are both fairly up and down players, with only marginally superior averages and neither of whom have been particularly impressive this season. And Hay's only been around for a year so it's no surprise he hasn't been picked yet. Realistically I don't think there have been many players outside of the team who've made a convincing case for selection based on domestic form.

Greg Hay is in his second year IIRC. But nevertheless I agree he shouldn't be picked just yet.

Still find it disturbing alot of our blokes average around 35 though.

 

[completeNZer]

Always thought Papps got a raw deal made an impressive start to his career against geuss who...(South Africa) this was in NZ (he has'nt played here in internationals since) he has an ODI average of 50+ but has never been considered. Is always picked for a 2 test match series in South Africa fails (like everyone else) and is dropped. His confidence looks down to me seeing the T20 domestic games televised and I think that's it for him tbh.

Cumming will play the first 2 tests and then get dropped. He is the pinnacle of poor batting.

How really is the answer to me he really looks class and this is not just because of results but you can just see in his play that he has worked tons of hours in the winter season on his technique. Compared to Cumming who is just the same Cumming as he was when he came into the international scene.

e.g
How used to have his bat coming down at an angle which had him caught at slip alot. He also used to just go an whack the ball in ODI's he's learnt to build an innings and just stand and deliver instead of premeditating. The working on his technique and determination is the key.

Whereas Cumming still has problem of playing around his pad and will always get out to Sidebottom, Vaas, Bracken, Johnson - the left armers.

My ODI side would be

How
McCullum
Taylor
Styris
Fulton
Oram
Hay but realistically Hopkins/McGlashan
Vettori
Mills
Mason
Martin

Ive already told you about How, McCullum has been in good form and is looking more responsable since been given the vc, Taylor made a magnificant T20 hundred last night and should be at 3 because at 5 he looks confused and goes back to his hockey days and plays his hockey slap in the last 15 overs which he can only play if he's got in. Styris is just Stryis was only dropped because he is a teachers pet, shouldv'e never been dropped, Fulton is good at 5 imo he can actually whack the ball a fear way but can play the responsable innings when needed, no need to explain Oram, I want Hay in there but I understand that he's still new and the selectors are going for saftey so Hopkins but a nice left fielder would be McGlashan? Vettori - skipper, yeah. Mills is our best ODI bowler, Don't really like Mason but he's playing well so what are ya going to do, Martin is our best fit test bowler, can he convert to ODI?

Test

Bell
How
Fleming
Styris
Taylor
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Mills
Mason/Gillespie if fit
Martin

Bell hopefully continues his good form? or has he perfected his batting? unlucky to be given out in Wellington. How is the real interest of this tour for me but i expect Cumming to be selected because he got 1 'good score' like he did for the Bagladesh tour and fail. Fleming, nothing to say. Styris will probably be overlooked with Fulton but it's really stupidity. Taylor was unlucky to get dropped after the SA test imo he made starts but often got caught cutting and that one stupid run out. Oram=quality, McCullum is a world class keeper highly under rated often makes quick fire 40's and then gets out in stupid ways hopefully will see first ODI hundred and first test hundred against a top test team (96 against England being his closest). Vettori is a fun batsman to watch top bowler wont take many wickets though, Mills should be getting more test wickets then he does quality bowler, O'Brien is crap enough said but will get picked, Mason wont be very effective in tests but could hold an end down, would be a good partner to Dan Vettori, Gillespie is an attacking bowler Smith I think it was said he thought he was very difficult to play, Martin is our number 1 strike bowler while Bond and Franklin are gone so yeah, batting is improving im seeing moving feet

Bond doesn't get a look in for me even if he makes himslef available.

Thus concludes my long winded evaluation of the kiwi team as you can see I have to much time on my hands.

 

[Flem274*]

Always thought Papps got a raw deal made an impressive start to his career against geuss who...(South Africa) this was in NZ (he has'nt played here in internationals since) he has an ODI average of 50+ but has never been considered. Is always picked for a 2 test match series in South Africa fails (like everyone else) and is dropped. His confidence looks down to me seeing the T20 domestic games televised and I think that's it for him tbh.

Cumming will play the first 2 tests and then get dropped. He is the pinnacle of poor batting.

How really is the answer to me he really looks class and this is not just because of results but you can just see in his play that he has worked tons of hours in the winter season on his technique. Compared to Cumming who is just the same Cumming as he was when he came into the international scene.

e.g
How used to have his bat coming down at an angle which had him caught at slip alot. He also used to just go an whack the ball in ODI's he's learnt to build an innings and just stand and deliver instead of premeditating. The working on his technique and determination is the key.

Whereas Cumming still has problem of playing around his pad and will always get out to Sidebottom, Vaas, Bracken, Johnson - the left armers.

My ODI side would be

How
McCullum
Taylor
Styris
Fulton
Oram
Hay but realistically Hopkins/McGlashan
Vettori
Mills
Mason
Martin

Ive already told you about How, McCullum has been in good form and is looking more responsable since been given the vc, Taylor made a magnificant T20 hundred last night and should be at 3 because at 5 he looks confused and goes back to his hockey days and plays his hockey slap in the last 15 overs which he can only play if he's got in. Styris is just Stryis was only dropped because he is a teachers pet, shouldv'e never been dropped, Fulton is good at 5 imo he can actually whack the ball a fear way but can play the responsable innings when needed, no need to explain Oram, I want Hay in there but I understand that he's still new and the selectors are going for saftey so Hopkins but a nice left fielder would be McGlashan? Vettori - skipper, yeah. Mills is our best ODI bowler, Don't really like Mason but he's playing well so what are ya going to do, Martin is our best fit test bowler, can he convert to ODI?

Test

Bell
How
Fleming
Styris
Taylor
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Mills
Mason/Gillespie if fit
Martin

Bell hopefully continues his good form? or has he perfected his batting? unlucky to be given out in Wellington. How is the real interest of this tour for me but i expect Cumming to be selected because he got 1 'good score' like he did for the Bagladesh tour and fail. Fleming, nothing to say. Styris will probably be overlooked with Fulton but it's really stupidity. Taylor was unlucky to get dropped after the SA test imo he made starts but often got caught cutting and that one stupid run out. Oram=quality, McCullum is a world class keeper highly under rated often makes quick fire 40's and then gets out in stupid ways hopefully will see first ODI hundred and first test hundred against a top test team (96 against England being his closest). Vettori is a fun batsman to watch top bowler wont take many wickets though, Mills should be getting more test wickets then he does quality bowler, O'Brien is crap enough said but will get picked, Mason wont be very effective in tests but could hold an end down, would be a good partner to Dan Vettori, Gillespie is an attacking bowler Smith I think it was said he thought he was very difficult to play, Martin is our number 1 strike bowler while Bond and Franklin are gone so yeah, batting is improving im seeing moving feet

Bond doesn't get a look in for me even if he makes himslef available.

Thus concludes my long winded evaluation of the kiwi team as you can see I have to much time on my hands.

Taylor should not play tests. He is simply not good enough and will only ever be a flat track bully unless he changes his play and technique drastically. Fulton is a top class FC player, how you can drop him in favour of Taylor I don't know. Sinclair should get a look in, he's quality and has shown it at FC and test level.

My only gripe with your one day team is Martin. Sure he's been economical but if he can't take bangladeshi wickets despite being a strike bowler then i doubt he'll be very successful.

In case you are wondering my preffered teams are:

Tests:

Bell
How
Sinclair
Fleming
Fulton
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Franklin
Mills
Martin/Gillespie (Bond if available)

ODI:

McCullum
How
Taylor
Fulton
Styris
Hay/Houpapa/maybe Flynn in the future/someone with potential no Marshall, Hopkins, etc
Oram
Vettori
Adams
Mills
Mason/Scott/Thompson depending on his List A experience, I'm not entirely sure how much hes played.

 

[completeNZer]

Taylor should not play tests. He is simply not good enough and will only ever be a flat track bully unless he changes his play and technique drastically. Fulton is a top class FC player, how you can drop him in favour of Taylor I don't know. Sinclair should get a look in, he's quality and has shown it at FC and test level.

My only gripe with your one day team is Martin. Sure he's been economical but if he can't take bangladeshi wickets despite being a strike bowler then i doubt he'll be very successful.

In case you are wondering my preffered teams are:

Tests:

Bell
How
Sinclair
Fleming
Fulton
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Franklin
Mills
Martin/Gillespie (Bond if available)

ODI:

McCullum
How
Taylor
Fulton
Styris
Hay/Houpapa/maybe Flynn in the future/someone with potential no Marshall, Hopkins, etc
Oram
Vettori
Adams
Mills
Mason/Scott/Thompson depending on his List A experience, I'm not entirely sure how much hes played.

Totally disagree about Taylor he's one of our greatest talents and we can't waste that yes he needs to work on his temperament but technique is over rated look at Chanderpaul, Martyn they use their hand eye co ordination more. Yea Fulton is class but he isn't taking his opertunities (tests). Sinclair is all over the place, I was watching from behind the slips in Wellington and he just looked horrible I don't know if it was nerves but if he's going to play nervy like that he will be poor against England. That number 5 position was the hardest and I went with Taylor on giving him the oppurtunity (Sinclair and Fulton having their go against Bangladesh). Just go with Hay I say .

I agree about Martin but there just isn't anyone else.

 

[NZTailender]

It's just not Taylor's time yet, in tests. He still needs a couple more seasons of first class cricket before he should play tests.

 

[NZTailender]

I agree about Martin but there just isn't anyone else.

Andre Adams could probably do a better job in ODI's. As yet un-tried bowlers in James Mcmillan, Warren McSkimming, Bradley Scott and Ewen Thompson could do as well.