Pace List

[shortpitched713]

Is it not possible for some statisticans to measure the speeds to within a couple of mph of old bowlers, based on the length of time it takes for the ball to travel from bowler to batsman? Even grainy video would work if slowed.

Yes that would seem to be possible, but in that case it would be impossible to compare to the speeds that are recorded today using speedgun as the speedgun measures instantaneous speed as the ball leaves the bowlers hand, and the calculated speed using the footage would be an average speed over the length of the wicket. The latter can be significantly less than the former and varies from bowler to bowler, as I'm sure you know.

 

[Richard]

Haha, yeah, forgot about that.

Most deliveries which pitch lose at least 20mph through the course of the 18 yards. Yorkers and Full-Tosses probably only lose about 12 or 13.

 

[sps]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPDW7hj1yfs


fastest bowler competition in 1979
a suprising winner.

 

[SJS]

What should really determine who is the faster bowler is the speed at which a bowler bowls most of the time. Just taking the fastest ball ever bowled by the bowler as an indicator will lead to anomalies like Sreesanth being in this list.

 

[pup11]

For me a fast bowler is the one who can bowl quick througout a spell without dropping his pace, and when he comes into bowl a new spell than also his pace should be right up there.
A fast bowler should have good stamina and fitness to back his ability to bowl fast.

 

[SJS]

For mr the list would be something like

1. Spofforth
2. Larwood
3. Tyson
4. Trueman and Statham
5. Constantine and Martindale
6. Adcock
7. Lillee and Thomson
8. Imran
9. Hadlee
10. Roberts and Holding
11. Garner and Croft
12. Marshall
13. Hall and Gilchrist
14. Donald and Pollock
15. Amar Singh and Nissar
16. Lindwall and Miller
17. Waqar and Wasim
18. Gregory and McDonald

 

[The Sean]

For mr the list would be something like

1. Spofforth
2. Larwood
3. Tyson
4. Trueman
5. Constantine and Martindale
6. Adcock
7. Lillee and Thomson
8. Imran
9. Hadlee
10. Roberts and Holding
11. Garner and Croft
12. Marshall
13. Hall and Gilchrist
14. Donald and Pollock
15. Amar Singh and Nissar

What are your criteria there? Do you think these are the best, the fastest, the most influential, your favourites? I would have thought Lindwall/Miller and Trueman/Statham deserved a mention as well when talking about partnerships.

 

[Richard]

Lindwall and Miller > almost all other seam-bowling partnerships IMO.

 

[pup11]

Weren't Lindwall and Miller bowling in an era of uncoved pitches, so you can't say that they were easily the best seam-bowling partnership ever.

 

[SJS]

What are your criteria there? Do you think these are the best, the fastest, the most influential, your favourites? I would have thought Lindwall/Miller and Trueman/Statham deserved a mention as well when talking about partnerships.

Yes. I should have added Statham there. Also Waqar and Wasim. Another absolutely top class pair I forgot. Miller and Lindwall is simply a failure of 'cut and paste'.

Correcting.

 

[SJS]

Weren't Lindwall and Miller bowling in an era of uncoved pitches, so you can't say that they were easily the best seam-bowling partnership ever.

They were bowling in an era of good batting tracks and very tall scores.

 

[Richard]

Weren't Lindwall and Miller bowling in an era of uncoved pitches, so you can't say that they were easily the best seam-bowling partnership ever.

In England, yes, in Australia I think they started covering pitches about halfway through their career.

I don't think anyone would call them unequivocally the best partnership ever but beyond a doubt an attack of those two with Bill Johnston as the third seamer was quite something.

I mean, think about it for a sec... those two were possibly the first Test-level pair of seam-bowlers to hunt together and become renowned, over a number of years, as a fearsome prospect (there'd been plenty at domestic level - Larwood and Voce at Notts being possibly the best; there'd also been spin-twins and seamer-spinner partnerships aplenty). I suppose there was Nissar and Amar Singh before them but they played, what, 5 or 6 Tests? Likewise Constantine and Martindale, plus Francis and Griffith.

After them there were...
Statham and Trueman (who didn't play together anywhere near as many times as many seem to think, and had the likes of Alec Bedser and Tyson in the mix as well)
Adcock and Heine (who played at a time when SA did not play many Tests)
Hall and Griffith (for a very short time only)
Davidson and McKenzie (for all of 18 months)
Snow and Willis (when circumstances allowed, which was not often)
Lillee and Thomson (for a couple of seasons)
Roberts and Holding (for a season or so, before they became part of a three- or four-prong attack)
Sarfraz and Imran
Willis and Botham (who played mostly during the Packer Schism)
Hadlee and Chatfield
McDermott and Reid (when both were off the operating-table, which was rarely)
Donald and de Villiers (for 10 games or so)
Ambrose and Bishop and later Ambrose and Walsh
Wasim and Waqar (an outstanding partnership for much less than the length of their careers)
McGrath and Gillespie (on and off - and even despite this they were still one of the best)
Donald and Pollock

All-in-all, I'd say only Donald and Pollock, Ambrose and Walsh and McGrath and Gillespie can be said to be in the same league, and all of these were 1990s partnerships. Really, I think I'd probably only put the West Indian pair ahead of Lindwall and Miller.

 

[silentstriker]

Looking at the fastest bowler competition, I do not think this is the average speed. From the video, if you look at the position of the siding with the measuring speed, it is located where they release the ball and not after.

Also, if they measured the average, then all the people in the competition would be bowling full tosses to remove the massive slowdown when the ball hits the pitch. But you saw a couple short ones there too, which leads me to believe that it was in fact measured only out of the hand. Which, if true, shows how ridiculously overrated the speeds of the past were. That is, with the exception of Thommo, who knocked one through at almost 150kph despite being well past his fastest in 1979. I can see him doing 160kph at his absolute prime. It would also fit in with what we know about Imran (being sharp but not express), as he is shown in the mid-high eighties. For him to average mid eighties, the speed out of the hand would likely have to be 100mph+, considering the ball loses such a huge percentage after hitting the speed. And we're fairly sure that Imran wasn't 100mph+ express.

Anyone have documentation where they detail it?

 

[SJS]

One more

Gregory and McDonald

 

[Engle]

The avg speed is the total speed of all deliveries div by the number of deliveries.
Thommo's avg was faster than the next bowlers fastest delivery (Holding) which confirmed what many were saying at the time. That Thommo was fastest, followed by Holding.
Were these bowlers bowling at their fastest, considering this wasn't Test cricket ? I'd lean towards the affirmative seeing that their fellow competitors presence would be motive enough.

Does the ball slow down after hitting the ground ? Not entirely sure.
But the better measurement has to be from the batsmans point of view.

 

[SJS]

Looking at the fastest bowler competition, I do not think this is the average speed. From the video, if you look at the position of the siding with the measuring speed, it is located where they release the ball and not after.

Also, if they measured the average, then all the people in the competition would be bowling full tosses to remove the massive slowdown when the ball hits the pitch. But you saw a couple short ones there too, which leads me to believe that it was in fact measured only out of the hand. Which, if true, shows how ridiculously overrated the speeds of the past were. That is, with the exception of Thommo, who knocked one through at almost 150kph despite being well past his fastest in 1979. I can see him doing 160kph at his absolute prime. It would also fit in with what we know about Imran (being sharp but not express), as he is shown in the mid-high eighties. For him to average mid eighties, the speed out of the hand would likely have to be 100mph+, considering the ball loses such a huge percentage after hitting the speed. And we're fairly sure that Imran wasn't 100mph+ express.

Anyone have documentation where they detail it?

Iy is exactly the opposite. The earliest measurements were made by taking the average speed over 22 yards. What we see today as speed on TV is the "out-of-hand" speed. Which is always going to be higher than the speed over 22 yards.

 

[silentstriker]

Iy is exactly the opposite. The earliest measurements were made by taking the average speed over 22 yards. What we see today as speed on TV is the "out-of-hand" speed. Which is always going to be higher than the speed over 22 yards.

Yes, that is what I mean. If it is really the 'average' speed over 22 yards, then the speeds don't make as much sense. Do you have any sources to confirm it? I am not saying you are wrong, but I would be surprised if you are right.

 

[SJS]

Yes, that is what I mean. If it is really the 'average' speed over 22 yards, then the speeds don't make as much sense. Do you have any sources to confirm it? I am not saying you are wrong, but I would be surprised if you are right.

There was a discussion on TV about a year back in which some formaer fast bowlers also participated . It was mentioned there that the speed measured on Thommo would be much faster if measured by today's method of measuring speed for reasons mentioned by me.

 

[silentstriker]

There was a discussion on TV about a year back in which some formaer fast bowlers also participated . It was mentioned there that the speed measured on Thommo would be much faster if measured by today's method of measuring speed for reasons mentioned by me.

Not sure if the former faster bowlers themselves are the most objective source for this stuff.

If the average speed was measured, there is no way that people could bowl close to 150kph. I know it was Thommo, and I have no qualms about accepting him to be the fastest bowler ever, or close to it, but to average 150kph over 22 yards after your best years are behind you is, I hate to say the word but, impossible. That speed measured out of his hand would likely be 170kph.

Same with Imran, he was rapid, but he wasn't express as his 137 over 22 yard average would lead you to believe. I'm going to try to find sources for this, and I could very well be proven wrong obviously, but I'd be surprised if I were.

 

[SJS]

Not sure if the former faster bowlers themselves are the most objective source for this stuff.

If the average speed was measured, there is no way that people could bowl close to 150kph. I know it was Thommo, and I have no qualms about accepting him to be the fastest bowler ever, or close to it, but to average 150kph over 22 yards after your best years are behind you is, I hate to say the word but, impossible. That speed measured out of his hand would likely be 170kph.

Same with Imran, he was rapid, but he wasn't express as his 137 over 22 yard average would lead you to believe. I'm going to try to find sources for this, and I could very well be proven wrong obviously, but I'd be surprised if I were.

I am afraid I cant claim to have personal knowledge of anyone's speed. I have neither played any of them nor measured anyone's speeed myself