Pace List

[Richard]

Says more about the quality of the pads.

Don't think so - pads were perfectly decent in the 1950s - no reason, in fact, to suspect they were much different to today, just less comfortable.

And no other bowlers ever bruised batsmen through them.

 

[silentstriker]

Don't think so - pads were perfectly decent in the 1950s - no reason, in fact, to suspect they were much different to today, just less comfortable.

And no other bowlers ever bruised batsmen through them.

Maybe he was as fast, maybe he wasn't. But I would probably guess that he wasn't. In any case, the primary reason I want to find out their real speed is because of avoiding comments, which sound somewhat like this:

"Back in my day, we walked to 10 miles uphill both ways to the cricket ground to see WG Grace bat against Spofforth. And let me tell ya something about Spofforth, he was so fast that we heard a sonic boom every time he bowled a delivery, and the sound wasn't Arthur Shrewberry passing gas either. And by the way, I have it on good authority (ie mine) that Einstein thought of theory of relativity after watching a Spofforth delivery at high speed and studying the relativistic effects of ants crawling on the slower one from Spofforth.

And Grace, let me tell ya, he weighed 750 lbs but moved faster than Jonty Rhodes in the field and once he used a baseball bat with a blindfold on to play the reverse sweep off a Spofforth delivery, and it went past the stadium and into the English Channel. Of course that was just for fun, as his normal batting style was so perfect that his bat was always completely perpendicular to the ground, and we measured it once to within .0001 degrees too. In fact, I once saw him play a hook shot with the perpendicular bat."

 

[Richard]

What people very often don't realise is that Grace was indeed a great athlete in his younger days.

As regards bowlers such as Spofforth - it's almost universally held to be true that people exaggerated (or maybe more accurate would be to say mistook) his speed, as they did with, for example, Simon Jones before he was timed. Or Shaun Pollock.

Most people tend to think Larwood was the first real "speed-of-light" bowler, and I see no reason to believe he would not have been capable of the 90-95mph sort of speeds we see in the Shoaibs and one or two others today, and which presumably we saw in the Thomsons and Holdings in their days.

 

[archie mac]

Maybe he was as fast, maybe he wasn't. But I would probably guess that he wasn't. In any case, the primary reason I want to find out their real speed is because of avoiding comments, which sound somewhat like this:

"Back in my day, we walked to 10 miles uphill both ways to the cricket ground to see WG Grace bat against Spofforth. And let me tell ya something about Spofforth, he was so fast that we heard a sonic boom every time he bowled a delivery, and the sound wasn't Arthur Shrewberry passing gas either. And by the way, I have it on good authority (ie mine) that Einstein thought of theory of relativity after watching a Spofforth delivery at high speed and studying the relativistic effects of ants crawling on the slower one from Spofforth.

And Grace, let me tell ya, he weighed 750 lbs but moved faster than Jonty Rhodes in the field and once he used a baseball bat with a blindfold on to play the reverse sweep off a Spofforth delivery, and it went past the stadium and into the English Channel. Of course that was just for fun, as his normal batting style was so perfect that his bat was always completely perpendicular to the ground, and we measured it once to within .0001 degrees too. In fact, I once saw him play a hook shot with the perpendicular bat."

SS in 50 years

"You should have seen McGrath; he could land the ball on a grain of sand, and not just once or twice but for every ball in a 20 over spell, and movment? he could land the ball so far outside the off stump, the umpire would just start to signal a wide, when the ball would come back and take the top of leg stump, and smash it to little shards of wood, and once he hurt his right shoulder and still claimed a double hat-trick bowling with his left arm, on a flat track to win the match, when most of the crowd had left because they said Aust had no hope"

 

[silentstriker]

SS in 50 years

"You should have seen McGrath; he could land the ball on a grain of sand, and not just once or twice but for every ball in a 20 over spell, and movment? he could land the ball so far outside the off stump, the umpire would just start to signal a wide, when the ball would come back and take the top of leg stump, and smash it to little shards of wood, and once he hurt his right shoulder and still claimed a double hat-trick bowling with his left arm, on a flat track to win the match, when most of the crowd had left because they said Aust had no hope"

Touché. Except you'd have videos and reliable speeds and then tell me where to stuff it.

 

[neville cardus]

Maybe he was as fast, maybe he wasn't. But I would probably guess that he wasn't.

He made 'em hurt through their pads, for goodness sake.

"Back in my day, we walked to 10 miles uphill both ways to the cricket ground to see WG Grace bat against Spofforth. And let me tell ya something about Spofforth, he was so fast that we heard a sonic boom every time he bowled a delivery

By all accounts, he landed hard. When Barlow accused him of cutting up the wicket with his follow-through (which he most certainly did), Spoff responded by flattening him with a monstrous haymaker of which even Butterbean would be proud.

And by the way, I have it on good authority (ie mine) that Einstein thought of theory of relativity after watching a Spofforth delivery at high speed and studying the relativistic effects of ants crawling on the slower one from Spofforth.

Spofforth did once consult a scientist, when he discovered that he could get the ball to swing, but it was passed off nonchalantly as an optical illusion. Spofforth had little regard for scientists of any kind thereafter.

And Grace, let me tell ya, he weighed 750 lbs but moved faster than Jonty Rhodes in the field

They fielded in the same position and were both the finest of their respective epochs.

and once he used a baseball bat

He partook in a number of baseball exhibitions with the numerous Americans who crossed his path.

with a blindfold on to play the reverse sweep off a Spofforth delivery, and it went past the stadium and into the English Channel.

Grace certainly cleared the boundary off Spoff on more than one occasion, but no-one hit the Demon quite so far as William Game managed at the Oval in '78.

 

[neville cardus]

What people very often don't realise is that Grace was indeed a great athlete in his younger days.

Annoying, innit?

As regards bowlers such as Spofforth - it's almost universally held to be true that people exaggerated (or maybe more accurate would be to say mistook) his speed

His renowned inspiration of "funk" in opposing batsmen had a lot to do with these misconceptions. It's a little-known fact that Spofforth barely ever bowled fast in the 1880s, instead sticking predominantly to what he called his "judgement balls" (fast-medium off-cutters, in today's terms).

 

[Richard]

Spofforth did once consult a scientist, when he discovered that he could get the ball to swing, but it was passed off nonchalantly as an optical illusion. Spofforth had little regard for scientists of any kind thereafter.

That one makes me laugh every time.

 

[neville cardus]

That one makes me laugh every time.

Good to know. I'm quite surprised, though, to find that you've read about it as often as seems to have been the case; I thought that it was a relatively obscure and unknown fact.

 

[SJS]

That one makes me laugh every time.

Yes its funny but I am amazed that you hve heard it many times. I for one had never heard that one before and I was disappointed in a childish way in that it is such a well known incident about a legend of the game and I was completely ignorant of it.

 

[Richard]

The first I heard of it was back in 2000 when Mark Nicholas and Dermot Reeve were discussing what makes a ball swing; MCJ mentioned that some scientists still suggest it is mere optical illusion. Needless to say, the ubiquitous Richie Benaud popped his sixpence-worth in, mentioning the famous Spofforth comment, in that inimitable laconic way of his. This made it more funny than it would have had, say, Geoffrey Boycott said it. "Nev" used a similar tone earlier this thread, which like Richie made the comment especially funny.

I mean, what makes me laugh is not merely the stupidity of those who say swing is an optical-illusion, but Spofforth's contempt for such.

 

[neville cardus]

The first I heard of it was back in 2000 when Mark Nicholas and Dermot Reeve were discussing what makes a ball swing; MCJ mentioned that some scientists still suggest it is mere optical illusion. Needless to say, the ubiquitous Richie Benaud popped his sixpence-worth in, mentioning the famous Spofforth comment, in that inimitable laconic way of his. This made it more funny than it would have had, say, Geoffrey Boycott said it. "Nev" used a similar tone earlier this thread, which like Richie made the comment especially funny.

I obviously missed that. Thanks. (For the record, I first spotted the anecdote in Ralph Barker's classic Ten Great Bowlers.)

 

[Goughy]

No-one ever accurately timed him until the 1999\2000 season, but I think it's fairly safe to assume he would've been 95-7mph tops in his early 1990s heyday.

Waqar is interesting. He is one of my favourite bowlers, mainly for the reverse swing but Ive never seen him bowl at top bracket pace.

In the early to mid-90s he toured NZ (this was during my time of recording every thing cricket related) and it was interesting to see that he was bowling at the same pace Chris Lewis (it sems to be my Chris Lewis da today on CW ) did a season or 2 before which was in the late 130s. NZ were early in showing speeds and even assuming the speeds were not accurate it does benchmark him at Lewis like speed. His greatness came from far more than raw pace.

Can I also be the first to say I dont trust speed guns across the board. Im sure different makes and models are used and that different countries implement them differently. Basicaly Im saying they are interesting points of interest but I wouldnt use them for any scientific conclusions on pace. Especially when people start geting down to 0.5-3 km diference between bowlers.

 

[Richard]

UIMM everything from 1998 onwards has been standardised. Everything before then (attempts were made in 1996 producing implausible results) is unsubstantiated and as worthy as the stopwatch method.

 

[TheEpic]

Sometimes i'm not so sure as well, although I'm obviously no expert and this is only to the naked eye, it seems in different countries that the average speeds of certain bowlers is noticeably different. How quick would people on here say Johannes Van Der Wath is? Watching the opening 20/20 match yesterday, he was clocked at 89mph, and he certainly doesn't look that quick to me.

 

[Richard]

Don't forget, speeds actually do differ from country to country, it's not just different speedgun technology. It's pretty well-known, I think, that bowlers tend to bowl that few mph quicker in South Africa than, well, anywhere really. And that bit slower in the subcontinent.

Seamers, at least - spinners' paces tend to be less effected in my experience.

Johannes van der Wath, though, was definately being clocked up at 87mph in his stint with Sussex - I forget whether it was in 2005 or 2006 - and bowlers bowling quicker (at least out of the hand) than they appear to the naked-eye is not remotely unusual.

The case I always bring-up is Donald and Pollock - who were generally thought to be the same speed before 1998; then they were timed and Donald consistently registered in the low 90s (even at 32 years of age) while Pollock was mostly bowling in the low-mid 80s with an occasional quicker one.

The human eye is a poor judge of speed of bowling.

 

[Goughy]

UIMM everything from 1998 onwards has been standardised. Everything before then (attempts were made in 1996 producing implausible results) is unsubstantiated and as worthy as the stopwatch method.

UIMM?

Well this is from 2002 and suggests not all speed guns are the same.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/1959872.stm

The International Cricket Council does not at present keep records about bowling speeds so Shoaib's feat remains unofficial.

But Lee believes a standardised speed gun should be introduced around the world to eliminate any doubts.

Im not saying they are not standardised but Im under the impression they are not. Would be happy to have my opinion changed if you could provide a source and the name of the exclusive speed gun name for International cricket.

 

[Richard]

UIMM = unless I'm much mistaken.

Evidently, however, I might be so - I'd always presumed that even if the manufacturers aren't the same, the manufacturing process is sufficiently similar to make guns the same. I mean, I can't tell any difference whatsoever between Kellogg's Raisin Wheats and Saisbury's Raisin Wheats; I can, however, tell the difference between Tesco Value Soya Milk and Tesco Soya Milk.

I had read that quote after the first Shoaib 100mph delivery in 2002, but had always just passed it off as conspiracy-theorism.

 

[neville cardus]

Sometimes i'm not so sure as well, although I'm obviously no expert and this is only to the naked eye, it seems in different countries that the average speeds of certain bowlers is noticeably different. How quick would people on here say Johannes Van Der Wath is? Watching the opening 20/20 match yesterday, he was clocked at 89mph, and he certainly doesn't look that quick to me.

Billy Joel is quicker than you give him credit for, I feel. Certainly, Morkel (Morne, not Albie), who's definitely got fair tank of gas (and looks it, too), was clocked at around the same speed yesterday.

 

[Richard]

Billy Joel is quicker than you give him credit for, I feel.

The perpetrator of We Didn't Start The Fire, River Of Dreams and Always Woman To Me = van der Wath?