How good a bowler was Dennis Lillee?

[Matt79]

I totally disagree with you point. There's all the difference in the world between saying "I'll do the right thing by the team even if it doesn't thrill me", and saying "I don't care about the team, I'm doing what suits me". Its a weird argument to make about Lillee in some senses given he did jump ship to WSC, but the particular circumstances of that aside (which would include that most of 'his team' were going with him), I think he'd always be prepared to go and give whatever was asked of him his best shot.

And re the suggested line of thought he was having - he's on the record as saying he doesn't hate Pakistan - he had a problem with the standard of the umpiring there. And he had some fairly specific reasons as to why he'd be unsure of how he would go, so "just because" is a bit unfair too.

All that said, I'm sure he was less disappointed at missing the tour to Pakistan through injury than he would have been if he had missed a tour of England...

 

[Richard]

I think you might have misunderstood me. I'm very much not saying Lillee would have done something (WSC aside) that harmed his team's prospects, nor that he had a dislike for Pakistan in itself. However, I think he was "resigned", TBH, to the fact that his chances of success in Pakistan were slim. Lack of skill might not have been entirely at fault, I've said many times that Lillee could quite conceivably have succeeded in the subcontinent given more opportunity. However, bowlers did go to Pakistan and succeed: that Lillee did not is, like it or not, a blight on his record. As is the fact that he did not seem to relish the chance to put it right is likewise.

 

[Sanz]

Greg Chappell described it as being "unfit for test cricket" despite scoring 235 - sums it up really

Greg Chappell, I would watch him bat all day but I dont trust a single word coming out of him.

 

[Sanz]

I don't think that you need a link to prove that as whatever Richard said is well known amongst the cricket circles of the world.

And I guess you hang around those Cricket Circles ?

Sorry, it really is not.

 

[Matt79]

Think everyone owes BhupinderSingh a big <<WHOOOOOOSH>>, having failed to bridge his sarchasm...

 

[The Sean]

Just re-read it and I think you're right - good call.

Well played BhupinderSingh.

 

[Sanz]

Think everyone owes BhupinderSingh a big <<WHOOOOOOSH>>, having failed to bridge his sarchasm...

I dont think he was being sarcastic. I think he actually believes that Lillee refused to tour pak saying it was a graveyard of fast bowlers.

 

[The Sean]

I think we may need to hear from the man himself.

 

[Sanz]

Dont think we need to, Lillee has been discussed in past here are some Bupinder's posts :-

Lillee was hardly a great bowler.He was a green top bully & his miserable record in subcontinent proves.There is no b doubt that he was a good bowler but doesn't deserve to be in Marshall/McGrath/Imran/Hadlee/Akram/Ambrose category.

Your team is going to lose miserably.Even Dennis Lillee doesn't deserve to be a part of an alltime attack.

Dennis Lillee was great but don't think he was better than Wasim & McGrath.I'm saying this because Lillee has a very poor record in Asia.Other than that,there's hardly anythinh which separates these 3 IMO.

Dennis Lillee above Imran Khan,S.Barnes & Wasim Akram is a joke.

True.He's(Lillee) got even worst record than Mohammad Sami & AA in subcontinent.

 

[The Sean]

All fair enough - I know full well these are BS's views on DKL. However, the timing and target of his comment indicates he might deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Meh, you can't say we don't debate the big issues here on CW.

 

[Sanz]

All Right mate, we wait to hear from the man himself.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Whatever Sanz has said in post # 127 is right.

 

[social]

And my point is that maybe some sentiments that were quite possibly present (ie, "I hate Pakistan, I've no chance of doing well there "just because" so therefore I don't want to tour there again") didn't manifest themselves quite as some would suggest, but nonetheless had some sort of substance.

???

Firstly, the guy was injured so it's a mute point anyway

Secondly, virtually no-one wanted to tour Pakistan in those days

People can accuse Lillee of being many things but being a quitter is not one of them - the guy played through injuries that had forced many others into premature retirement in those days

 

[social]

You honestly don't have a clue if you question Holding for those two instances - one at the start and one at the end, neither of which he should have been playing.

QUOTE]

Huh?

He was one of the leading fast bowlers and deserved to be picked

What shouldnt have happened is him crying on the pitch and refusing to bowl or kicking stumps over

People in this thread have wrongly accused Lillee of refusing to tour Pakistan because of conditions BUT he never simply gave up because he felt the world was against him as old Mikey did on a couple of occasions - and you wonder why Bradman would pick Lillee over Holding

 

[SJS]

I am amazed at how Lillee's single sub continental trip stats are held against everything else he did and everything else that screams that he was a truly great bowler while Warne's miserable record in India is never treated similarly in assessing his place amongst the game's greats.

Not as aften and by as many people at least.

 

[archie mac]

I am amazed at how Lillee's single sub continental trip stats are held against everything else he did and everything else that screams that he was a truly great bowler while Warne's miserable record in India is never treated similarly in assessing his place amongst the game's greats.

Not as aften and by as many people at least.

Mate while you have been away I have been constantly telling them that it is a joke to condemn a great bowler on how he bowled in 3 Tests

Still it seems people on here think he is only highly rated because of his demenour, despite what great players have said time and time again

 

[BhupinderSingh]

I am amazed at how Lillee's single sub continental trip stats are held against everything else he did and everything else that screams that he was a truly great bowler while Warne's miserable record in India is never treated similarly in assessing his place amongst the game's greats.

Not as aften and by as many people at least.

SJS,you've raised a good point but Lillee's stats in Pakistan count much more against him than those of Warne's in India because Pakistan has always been graveyard of fast bowlers[One of the reasons that I rate Imran Khan so highly that despite hardly playing any domesic cricket in Pakistan, he was the first ever genuine fast bowler who not only successful there but also trained people like Wasim & Waqar,who served Pakistan for about 2 decades & still good bowlers(for whom Imran,Wasim & Waqar are idols) are coming out of that country] whereas India has always been known as spinner's paradise e.g look at the records of Kumble,Chandershakhar & Bedi,they have Marshall type of records in India but have Devon Malcolm type of stats in the matches played from home.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Mate while you have been away I have been constantly telling them that it is a joke to condemn a great bowler on how he bowled in 3 Tests

tdoesn't matter whether its 1 test,3 or 20.If two bowlers with similar stas are asked to perform in tough conditions & given only a single opuurtunity,suppose one of them achives success & other soes not,I'll always consider the one who was successful better than he other one who failed dspite the fact that they have similar records & regardless of whatever other people say about them.

Still it seems people on here think he is only highly rated because of his demenour, despite what great players have said time and time again

Those who such things are either clones of Inzamam or whatever they say is on the base of whatever they saw of Lillee in Australia(The place where he was extremly successful,without any doubt).It could also be because of his tremendous record whereever he played outside Pakistan,India & Sri Lanka.

 

[Swervy]

I am amazed at how Lillee's single sub continental trip stats are held against everything else he did and everything else that screams that he was a truly great bowler while Warne's miserable record in India is never treated similarly in assessing his place amongst the game's greats.

Not as aften and by as many people at least.

you are right, its a complete joke

 

[archie mac]

tdoesn't matter whether its 1 test,3 or 20.If two bowlers with similar stas are asked to perform in tough conditions & given only a single opuurtunity,suppose one of them achives success & other soes not,I'll always consider the one who was successful better than he other one who failed dspite the fact that they have similar records & regardless of whatever other people say about them..

You can't take 3 Tests and condemn a bowler it is a joke and a disgrace, but I am glad you said in you opinion and you are entitled to it, I will listen to the below list every time

Those who such things are either clones of Inzamam or whatever they say is on the base of whatever they saw of Lillee in Australia(The place where he was extremly successful,without any doubt).It could also be because of his tremendous record whereever he played outside Pakistan,India & Sri Lanka.

Clones of Inzi? Bradman, Benaud, Sobers, Marshall, Hadlee, Imran