How good a bowler was Dennis Lillee?

[adharcric]

Again I did not say everyone on here, just some people, and it is more than one, if I could be bothered I would find some posts to back me up, but I can't (be bothered that is)

Richard argued that Lillee's leap from top 10-15 fast bowlers to top 5 fast bowlers and arguably the greatest fast bowler according to some is a result of his aura, persona, demeanor, etc. Nobody has said that Lillee is not an all-time great and a legend. The debate has been over the degree of greatness in comparison to Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Ambrose, etc.

 

[archie mac]

Presumed you were referring to the 1987\88 tour of New Zealand, which he shouldn't have been on. FFS, would you not be rather annoyed at the Umpiring (generally considered to be worse even than that experienced in Pakistan) in that series? I don't really have a problem with players being angry at such terrible, and seemingly hugely biased, Umpiring, which affected the course of the series, frankly.

You can't have it both ways mate, Llillee said he had six clear LBW decisions knocked back in that Pakistan series.

 

[archie mac]

IIRC, Richard argued that Lillee's leap from top 10-15 fast bowlers to top 5 and arguably the greatest fast bowler in the minds of some is due to his aura, persona, demeanor, etc.

Yes and others have used that argument, but still more than one person has used that joke of a 3 Test series in Pakistan to knock Lillee, or am I dreaming

 

[silentstriker]

I said in that post because of his demenour Please respond to the post made, I think the results of the poll would suggest that he is highly rated.

And it has been suggested a number of times on this forum that people rated him so highly because of his demenour

People do rate him higher than he should be partly because of his demeanor. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be rated high without it. Just that, instead of putting him in the top ten, his other attributes sometimes cause people to put him as #1 or #2, which IMO he is not.

It's no mean task to be one of the top ten best bowlers of all time.

 

[Engle]

Yes and others have used that argument, but still more than one person has used that joke of a 3 Test series in Pakistan to knock Lillee, or am I dreaming

Those 3 tests are a joke. I've checked them and not a single quickie did anything of note. In fact, Lillee's 3 wkts in an innings was the most, Imran/Sarfraz, etc got no more than 2 per innings. The spinners (Bright, Qasim) were cleaning up. This cannot be used as a gauge of fast bowling. So subsequent performances by quickies in the sub-cont cannot be used against DKL.

 

[adharcric]

Those 3 tests are a joke. I've checked them and not a single quickie did anything of note. In fact, Lillee's 3 wkts in an innings was the most, Imran/Sarfraz, etc got no more than 2 per innings. The spinners (Bright, Qasim) were cleaning up. This cannot be used as a gauge of fast bowling. So subsequent performances by quickies in the sub-cont cannot be used against DKL.

Let's get the facts straight - Imran took 6 wickets @ 24 apiece while Lillee took 3 wickets @ 101 apiece. Now, I don't hold this performance against Lillee overall but don't pretend like he had a remotely good series (even by pace standards), at least statistically.

 

[archie mac]

People do rate him higher than he should be partly because of his demeanor. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be rated high without it. Just that, instead of putting him in the top ten, his other attributes sometimes cause people to put him as #1 or #2, which IMO he is not.

It's no mean task to be one of the top ten best bowlers of all time.

Name one person who rates him more highly than he deserves because of his demeanor? I am sure that will be news to Benaud, Richards, Hadlee etc, I imagine they rate him because of his mastery over every type of ball (fast bowlers) except the yorker

I think some of these arguments against Lillee are nothing more than straw clutching

And if you don't think he should be rated No. 1 or 2 that is fair enough, your choice

 

[BhupinderSingh]

You can't have it both ways mate, Llillee said he had six clear LBW decisions knocked back in that Pakistan series.

He made a lame excuse for his failure.

 

[social]

I don't really care about whether he was injured - the point is regarding if he had not been injured.

Lillee quit Test-cricket for WSC, so as Matt79 said, it's not completely silly to call him a quitter on that front.

One of your more ridiculous posts

The guy was injured and couldnt tour - get over it

As for WSC - youre right. Virtually, every decent cricketer of the 70s should be regarded as quitters and weak whilst players such as Boycs who failed in their absence should be held in the utmost esteem

 

[neville cardus]

Those 3 tests are a joke. I've checked them and not a single quickie did anything of note. In fact, Lillee's 3 wkts in an innings was the most, Imran/Sarfraz, etc got no more than 2 per innings. The spinners (Bright, Qasim) were cleaning up.

Am I right in saying that even Greg Chappell, doddling down his part-time legbreaks, picked up a three-fer in one of those matches?

 

[archie mac]

He made a lame excuse for his failure.

No one has ever had a problem with the Pakistan umpires, Mr Gatting what do you think?

 

[Swervy]

He made a lame excuse for his failure.

I dont think he is really making excuses, it is surely a valid reason for him not taking wicketsover there. He is held in such high regard with most people who know about the game, that I dont think he really needs to justify himself with regards to 3 tests in Pakistan.

As far as I am concerned he could have been hit for 1000 runs in that series for no wickets, which would have bumped his average for his career, and he still would have been one of the very best fast bowlers of all time.

 

[Ikki]

Richard argued that Lillee's leap from top 10-15 fast bowlers to top 5 fast bowlers and arguably the greatest fast bowler according to some is a result of his aura, persona, demeanor, etc. Nobody has said that Lillee is not an all-time great and a legend. The debate has been over the degree of greatness in comparison to Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Ambrose, etc.

Let's think about that though. If it were really the fans that were in awe of his demeanor and rating him higher and such then maybe. Do you think fellow cricketers are likely to be in awe of their colleagues as us fans are of them? If in the fact that even THEY were in awe, and in Lillee's case so unanimously, then that takes some doing. And if anything that is being under-appreciated.

 

[Engle]

Let's get the facts straight - Imran took 6 wickets @ 24 apiece while Lillee took 3 wickets @ 101 apiece. Now, I don't hold this performance against Lillee overall but don't pretend like he had a remotely good series (even by pace standards), at least statistically.

Not pretending nothing.
The point being that those who compare other quicks performances in the sub-cont fail to consider that in those 3 Lillee matches, no quickie stood out.
Imran albeit marginally, tho not overwhelmingly.

So therefore, one cannot argue how well Macko, Ambrose, McGrath etc did vs Lillee.
Had they played in the same 3 matches and outshone him, then only does it become somewhat relevant.

 

[Engle]

ESPN Legends rates Lillee as the best fast bowler. In fact, #6 amongst all cricketers.

Wisden similarly rated Lillee as the best fast bowler, again #6 amongst all cricketers.

 

[archie mac]

ESPN Legends rates Lillee as the best fast bowler. In fact, #6 amongst all cricketers.

Wisden similarly rated Lillee as the best fast bowler, again #6 amongst all cricketers.

Must be his demeanor

 

[Neil Pickup]

IMPO Lillee was the bowler talked about in that old piece of Cricketing Poetry

"An hour to play and the last man in,
His Captains hand on his shoulder smote,
Play up and Play the game''

or some such words...Archie might be able to dig up a copy from somewhere.

Vitai Lampada was published in 1898...

 

[Richard]

The point being that those who compare other quicks performances in the sub-cont fail to consider that in those 3 Lillee matches, no quickie stood out.

And the point is, a bowler who is the best seamer of all-time should stand-out...

Now, it's perfectly conceivable that had Lillee visited Pakistan again that he'd have done so. Fact remains, though, he didn't in this case. He bowled like a very average seamer.

 

[Richard]

One of your more ridiculous posts

The guy was injured and couldnt tour - get over it

Where TF have I said otherwise? I'm making no reference to that particular missed tour, more the fact that there must be some reason why he's perceived to have been reluctant to go to Pakistan again.

As for WSC - youre right. Virtually, every decent cricketer of the 70s should be regarded as quitters and weak whilst players such as Boycs who failed in their absence should be held in the utmost esteem

Boycs hardly failed in their absence...

I never called anyone quitters, incidentally, but defecting to WSC does reflect badly upon someone in a purely cricketing sense, as they were opting for meaningless, worthless cricket ahead of proper stuff.

 

[Richard]

Name one person who rates him more highly than he deserves because of his demeanor? I am sure that will be news to Benaud, Richards, Hadlee etc, I imagine they rate him because of his mastery over every type of ball (fast bowlers) except the yorker

I'm sure they think they do, the point I've always made is that thoughts of the like are not conscious ones, they are things that come into the mind without realising it.