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What is your ALL TIME WORLD XI TEAM for tests?

Jassy

Banned
So let me get this straight. You day Sobers is just above Ponting, which is a fair opinion, but then you also said Sobers is closer to Bradman than to Ponting which means you believe Sobers and Bradman to be almost equals as batsmen?

I'd love to hear your arguments here because if you apply the same criteria you yourself mentioned (ie) context, bowlers faced, conditions etc. then Ponting probably had it tougher than Sobers. Batted higher up the order, faced the new ball more often, played against a far wider and better assortment of fast as well as spin bowlers than Sobers did. How about it?
Exactly.

Statement 1 : Sobers is closer to the Don than he is to Ponting.

Statement 2 : Sobers is 'just' above Ponting.

This means Bradman is 'just' above Sobers and this 'just' is less than the 'just' in Statement 2 because as per Statement 1 Sobers and Bradman are closer than Sobers and Ponting.

Interesting to say the least. In essence he is saying that Bradman and Sobers are near equals with the bat and Ponting isn't far behind them. Tell any Aussie that Bradman is just ahead of Ponting and they'll never take you seriously ever again.

Just wondering what the reaction would have been if an Indian fan had said the same about Tendulkar!

I have the greatest admiration for Sobers. Certainly one of the true greats. But so is Ponting. I know there is a tendency to underrate modern players on these boards for some reason. Ponting was as complete a batsman as you can get, problems against Harby aside. To have one over the other is personal preference really, but if we were to get down to conditions and bowlers faced you could make a strong case for Ponting as well; so let's not make it sound like Sobers was facing Marshall and McGrath on green tops all the time while Ponting faced Ishant Sharma on highways.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Tell any Aussie that Bradman is just ahead of Ponting and they'll never take you seriously ever again.
Tbh, they will never take you seriously eitherways.

Ponting was as complete a batsman as you can get, problems against Harby aside.
Not knocking Ponting here or anything, but he did tend to plant his foot across forward too early a number of times.
 

Jassy

Banned
Yes he had a tendency to lunge at the ball early on in his innings. Which batsman wasn't vulnerable to a ripping inswinger or outswinger early on? What do we mean by complete? If by complete you mean no weakness then clearly it excludes every batsman except the Don. If Sobers had no weakness he should have averaged more than 57.
 

watson

Banned
Jassy, it is not the role of any poster on Cricketweb to be completely accurate in their use of language. Rather, it is the role of the person reading the post to anticipate what the other poster really meant to say. It's called giving the other person the benefit of the doubt.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yes he had a tendency to lunge at the ball early on in his innings. Which batsman wasn't vulnerable to a ripping inswinger or outswinger early on? What do we mean by complete? If by complete you mean no weakness then clearly it excludes every batsman except the Don. If Sobers had no weakness he should have averaged more than 57.
I agree every batsman is vulnerable to a ripper early on But, as I am certain you must have noticed, somebody like Sachin didn't have an obvious tell like that. And Ponting didn't just do that early on in his innings. It's just that his hand-eye coordination was so quick, he managed to convert it into an advantage. I am not saying Tendulkar was perfect, ftr.
 

Jassy

Banned
Jassy, it is not the role of any poster on Cricketweb to be completely accurate in their use of language. Rather, it is the role of the person reading the post to anticipate what the other poster really meant to say. It's called giving the other person the benefit of the doubt.

Mate, I'm not picking on anyone's language. Goodness knows how bad I am at articulating myself so I would never dream of doing that; but if someone posts two (apparently) paradoxical statements then he will get called out on it unless he didn't mean to say Sobers is 'just' above Ponting but well above Ponting. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to ''anticipate'' what someone else is going to say when there's contradictions galore. I could never have anticipated anyone rating Sobers and Bradman as near equals with the bat either....

Harsh - I get what you're saying but Tendu had a bit of an issue (if I may call it that) against medium pace bowlers who bowled inswingers to him early on in his innings and no one would dream of calling Tendulkar an 'incomplete' batsman. Lara was even more susceptible early on in his innings....The point is you really can't say Ponting isn't a complete batsman; not when he has succeeded against everywhere and against everyone (except in India).
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Harsh - I get what you're saying but Tendu had a bit of an issue (if I may call it that) against medium pace bowlers who bowled inswingers to him early on in his innings and no one would dream of calling Tendulkar an 'incomplete' batsman. Lara was even more susceptible early on in his innings....The point is you really can't say Ponting isn't a complete batsman; not when he has succeeded against everywhere and against everyone (except in India).
Agree with everything you said above!
 

OverratedSanity

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Mate, I'm not picking on anyone's language. Goodness knows how bad I am at articulating myself so I would never dream of doing that; but if someone posts two (apparently) paradoxical statements then he will get called out on it unless he didn't mean to say Sobers is 'just' above Ponting but well above Ponting. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to ''anticipate'' what someone else is going to say when there's contradictions galore. I could never have anticipated anyone rating Sobers and Bradman as near equals with the bat either....

Harsh - I get what you're saying but Tendu had a bit of an issue (if I may call it that) against medium pace bowlers who bowled inswingers to him early on in his innings and no one would dream of calling Tendulkar an 'incomplete' batsman. Lara was even more susceptible early on in his innings....The point is you really can't say Ponting isn't a complete batsman; not when he has succeeded against everywhere and against everyone (except in India).
I find myself agreeing with most of your posts and enjoying reading them when they're not about Sangakkara :p
 

OverratedSanity

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Jassy, it is not the role of any poster on Cricketweb to be completely accurate in their use of language. Rather, it is the role of the person reading the post to anticipate what the other poster really meant to say. It's called giving the other person the benefit of the doubt.
Kyear's logic didn't make sense to me either. And when someone says something which might be seen as preposterous and doesn't give reasons for it, you'd imagine people would get annoyed don't you think?
Especially some of the new posters who haven't been here for a decade and discussed this same 'tedious' topic a hundred times.
 

watson

Banned
Kyear's logic didn't make sense to me either. And when someone says something which might be seen as preposterous and doesn't give reasons for it, you'd imagine people would get annoyed don't you think?
Especially some of the new posters who haven't been here for a decade and discussed this same 'tedious' topic a hundred times.
Lots of things make me annoyed, but kyear or anyone else making posts that I disagree with, or more to the point, don't immediately understand, isn't one of them.

Surely we all know by now that people (including myself) get emotional from time to time and lapse into hyperbole, or muddle what they are trying to say because they are rushed or distracted. It really isn't a big deal, and shouldn't be.
 
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kyear2

International Coach
Since we are into linguistics I changed just into clearly.

Since Jassy and ORS are on a tangent I will respond.

Lets start with Ponting (a batsman I greatly admire) and Sobers. Cricket is more than just statistics, especially for batsmen, otherwise we would be discussing Barrington as a contender as the best after Bradman and head and shoulders above Viv among much others, yet we don't. It's about impact, dominance, statistical and anecdotal evidence.
Just for an example when Cricinfo chose their ATG XI Bradman and Sobers, along with Warne were unanimous selections. If Sobers was a batsman alone, he would have easily made the team. How close was Ponting? He didn't even make Australia's XI (though he makes mine), and before anyone says that it's a tough fit into the Aussie middle order (which it is), who other than Bradman would have made it ahead of Sobers?
Sobers is seen as one of the three or four legitimate candidates for the best after Bradman, Ponting is borderline top 10 - 15 and the clear No. 3 of his own era. Few are closer to the Australian set up that Ina Chappell, he among many has advised Sobers was the best batsman he has seen. The batsmen in the same category as Sobers are Richards, Tendulkar, Lara, Hobbs. The ones just missing out are Chappell, Headley, Pollock and possibly Hammond. Ponting probably comes just behind and that isn't just an opinion held by myself but historians, journalist and past players throughout the cricketing world. There really isn't much to argue about here. Regarding Ponting batting higher, Sobers also succeeded at first drop, but dropped down the order because of the countless overs he had to throw down as the teams stock bowler, which undoubably had to effect his batting more than a negligible amount.

Bradman was the best batsman the world has seen, he also benefited from an amazing perfect storm, though he deserves exceptional credit for capitalizing on it better than any other. When Fred is speaking of Larwood, he often speaks of the flat pitches and debilitating LBW law that hampered his career. His best test series against Bradman was also his last.
Everyone speaks of Bradman averaging almost a hundred, and it's an amazing achievement after all he averaged 40 more than Headley after all. Just slight difference. Headley only played against the best two teams of his era (though some would say vs slightly weakened English attacks) and somehow in 20 Tests still payed in more countries, playing both Australia and England away from home. Bradman averaged over 100 against only two teams, a very weak Indian attack (avg 178) and an equally weak (Bambino will no doubt disagree) South African attack (avg 201) while scoring 4 hundreds in 5 Tests vs each. He averaged 75 vs the W.I after struggling initially in the series and a dropped catch before scoring his first of two centuries. Note, basically the same Indian team that Everton Weekes destroyed scoring 5 consecutive hundreds and a run out 92. Of course Weekes then had to face Lindwall, Miller and Trueman and Bradman rarely faced bowlers of that quality. Going into the War Headley had an average of 66, Bradman ended up with an average of 100, looking at the respective opponents, is he still justifiably twice as good? So even in the same era, especially early cricket, doesn't mean same opportunities. Sobers, Richards, Hobbs etc were all seen as superior to Headley. I believe Viv at his very best was close to equal in dominance to Bradman and Sobers was right there as well. Lillee said the best three batsmen he bowled to were (an aging) Sobers and the two Richards'. Fred once wrote that without the extreme burden of his heavy bowling work load and travel schedule may well have approached the heady heights of Bradman's average, I have no reason to doubt he could have, also factoring in he entered the team as a 17yr old left hand spinner and made himself into a batsman.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
My ATG team this week…

- Len Hutton
- Sunny Gavaskar
- Don Bradman
- Sachin Tendulkar
- Jaques Kallis
- Garry Sobers
- Imran Khan
- Godfrey Evans
- Shane Warne
- Dennis Lillee
- Muralitharan
 

Jassy

Banned
Look we're not going off on a tangent. You clearly rate Bradman considerably lower than most (to the point where you rate Sobers and Bradman as near equals with the bat)which makes it easier to understand your viewpoint of Sobers being closer to Bradman than to Ponting. That is fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion. I didn't 'anticipate' you rated Bradman that low.

Re. all time teams, again that is not the best criteria ever. Javagal Srinath would walk into India's all time side and Courtney Walsh wouldn't make West Indies' 11; that doesn't mean Srinath is better than Walsh. In any case all time 11s are just fantasy and most are inherently biased. Wasim Akram makes a lot of these elevens too but I don't think he'd make the top five fast bowlers ever on most peoples' lists.

The comparison with Barrington is moot. Barrington was a grafter, capable only of stonewalling. It is disingenuous to hint this comparison between Sobers and Ponting is based merely on statistics; it is not. Ponting was not just a stats great, he was a bloody complete batsman and one of the very best. It's funny how the argument initially was about how Ponting's numbers didn't compare favourably and when pointed out that Ponting had a similar record after the same number of innings, conditions and bowling attacks were thrown in. When even that was negated (on both those measures Ponting compares very favourably especially on the bowling attacks faced) we are back to the stats are not everything argument as if we were comparing Chanderpaul and Sobers!

Anyway, as you've made it clear why you rate Sobers closer to Bradman than to Ponting (reason being you rate Don Bradman lower than virtually everyone) I think we can agree to disagree. Just get the feeling Ponting is being criminally underrated atm. Both visually and statistically Ponting stands toe to toe with the very best. People are happy to pick on Ponting's India record but nothing is said about Sobers' NZ record which is worse seeing as he failed home and away against them. Anyway, that's that.
 
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OverratedSanity

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ATG best after at a particular shot/delivery XI

Gavaskar (leave)
Hayden (sweep)
Ponting (pull)
Tendulkar (straight drive)
Viv Richards (hook)
Botham (blind slog, filthy wicket taking ball)
Gilchrist (cut)
Warne (flipper)
Waqar (yorker)
Andy Roberts (bouncer)
Steyn (Outswinger)
 

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