Coronis
International Coach
Ah, nevermind, I misread. Thought it was Sobers being closer to Bradman than Ponting was.
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What is your ALL TIME WORLD XI TEAM for tests?
- Thread starter micz
- Start date
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Hammond and Headley, surely...
Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
Knew I'd forget someone obvious. Headley it was. Ken Barrington's record as a number 3 is pretty bloody impressive.
kyear2
International Coach
To say it isn't good enough is your opinion. You are entitled to it, as I am to my opinion. I have had that argument before and have no intention to repeat it.
Suffice it to say I do not believe Bradman is as high above all other batsmen as others do and there is a small group below him that as I said, I rate not as far behind him as others do. Richards, Sobers, Hobbs, Tendulkar and Lara. Possibly Headley but that's more borderline so I stick with the other five names.
Please note, not saying Bradman wasn't the best ever batsman, he clearly was.
ohnoitsyou
International Regular
There are about a million ways you can look at this and enough of them result in kyears statement being true, so while i don't agree with it myself, i think its reasonable. Sobers was the outstanding batsmen of his generation, Ponting was a distinct third. Bradman was a complete batsmen, Sobers very nearly was and Ponting wasn't.
harsh.ag
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Why do you hold this view?
kyear2
International Coach
Bradman
Viv
Lara
Ponting
Headley
Hammond
Sangakkara
Harvey
Worrell
Kanhai
Macartney
Dravid
Barrington
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Just on NUFAN's obtuse argument from earlier in the thread, I think his point stems around the thread title:
What is your ALL TIME WORLD XI TEAM for tests
Grace was not an all-time great Test cricketer, however he was an all-time great cricketer.
Grace is the only player who makes my ATWXI based on non-Test exploits because he played at a time when Test cricket wasn't seen as the most important cricket to be played, and in fact even at a time before it was played at all. That is why Grace is a walk-up start for me and someone like Barry Richards isn't really a consideration at all, harsh as that may be. My ATWXI team for Tests wouldn't include him though as his Test record, while actually much better than a cursory glance at it on paper will tell you, still has nothing on some of the other candidates.
What is your ALL TIME WORLD XI TEAM for tests
Grace was not an all-time great Test cricketer, however he was an all-time great cricketer.
Grace is the only player who makes my ATWXI based on non-Test exploits because he played at a time when Test cricket wasn't seen as the most important cricket to be played, and in fact even at a time before it was played at all. That is why Grace is a walk-up start for me and someone like Barry Richards isn't really a consideration at all, harsh as that may be. My ATWXI team for Tests wouldn't include him though as his Test record, while actually much better than a cursory glance at it on paper will tell you, still has nothing on some of the other candidates.
Viv, Ponting and Dravid clearly the standouts in recent years. Amla and Sangakkara are still WIP as far as their records are concerned. Amla just needs to play more and he'll get there; Sanga needs to sort out his record in a number of countries.
Don't see how you could have Dravid behind him TBH. Comfortably better away from home and miles better outside the subcontinent.
Don't think we could include Lara as a number 3. Without checking I'd wager he played more matches lower down the order than at 3. Maybe wrong though.
Don't see how you could have Dravid behind him TBH. Comfortably better away from home and miles better outside the subcontinent.
Don't think we could include Lara as a number 3. Without checking I'd wager he played more matches lower down the order than at 3. Maybe wrong though.
Oh, so there are more arguments in favour of Sobers being closer to Bradman than to Ponting! Astounding to say the least.
Ponting was a complete batsman and no he was not a distinct third. You don't do well all over the world and average 58 after 122 tests with 36 centuries otherwise. He had a bogey bowler in Harby like Tendulkar had Cronje and Razzaq.
For the sake of the argument even if Ponting is third best of his generation and Sobers the outstanding batsman of his, that means nothing really. Which of Sobers' contemporaries were better than Tendulkar or Lara? If Junaid Khan is the best bowler in the Pakistani side and Philander is comfortably second best in his that doesn't mean Junaid is miles ahead of Philander FFS. It doesn't even have to mean Junaid is better than Philander. And no, I don't mean Sobers vs Ponting is the same as Junaid vs Philander; but it's merely an example to show how messed up that ''logic''(or lack thereof) is.
Ponting was a complete batsman and no he was not a distinct third. You don't do well all over the world and average 58 after 122 tests with 36 centuries otherwise. He had a bogey bowler in Harby like Tendulkar had Cronje and Razzaq.
For the sake of the argument even if Ponting is third best of his generation and Sobers the outstanding batsman of his, that means nothing really. Which of Sobers' contemporaries were better than Tendulkar or Lara? If Junaid Khan is the best bowler in the Pakistani side and Philander is comfortably second best in his that doesn't mean Junaid is miles ahead of Philander FFS. It doesn't even have to mean Junaid is better than Philander. And no, I don't mean Sobers vs Ponting is the same as Junaid vs Philander; but it's merely an example to show how messed up that ''logic''(or lack thereof) is.
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Lillian Thomson
Hall of Fame Member
Based on the original concept of picking the best 2 openers, best 3 middle order batsman, best all-rounder, best keeper, best two spinners and best two pace men.
Gavaskar
Hobbs
Bradman
Richards
Tendulkar
Sobers
Knott
Marshall
Warne
Lillee
Murali
Based on the modern fad of runs runs runs and one spinner.
Gavaskar
Hobbs
Bradman
Richards
Tendulkar
Sobers
Gilchrist
Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Gavaskar
Hobbs
Bradman
Richards
Tendulkar
Sobers
Knott
Marshall
Warne
Lillee
Murali
Based on the modern fad of runs runs runs and one spinner.
Gavaskar
Hobbs
Bradman
Richards
Tendulkar
Sobers
Gilchrist
Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Graeme Pollock for sure.
Ken Barrington would be up there too.
Dravid was at least Barrington's equal and Ponting is better than both. Don't think anyone would have Barrington instead of Tendulkar or Lara; wouldn't even be an argument for most TBH despite his great record. If people were to make all time 11s Barrington would probably make the fourth eleven or something. Not a slight on him but it is what it is. He was a great stonewaller, nothing less or more.
Look I have the utmost respect for Pollock and I have little doubt he'd have done brilliantly but I'm not going to rate him on 20 tests. I know it's no fault of his and it is harsh and unfortunate but too bad. If we're including the likes of Pollock on 20 tests, I'll also include Steve Waugh et al because his career overlapped with Ponting's for a period that was more than Pollock's entire test cricket career.
In any case, people who are ready to rate Pollock on 20 tests would definitely rate him on par with Sobers or maybe even better. The question of being the 'outstanding' batsman of the generation then does not arise.
I really don't think you could make any objective case for Sobers being closer to Bradman than to Ponting. Kyear himself admits as much and that it is only because he rates the Don lower than most people.
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Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
I love your teams but it really hurts my head when people have Viv and 4 at Sachin at 5 rather than vice versa.....
OverratedSanity
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Agree with virtually everything you've put there Jassy, but especially the parts in bold. And the line of thinking of "so and so Wasn't even e best in his generation. How is that relevant in a direct comparison? Kyear is simultaneously overrating Sober, underrating Don as he always does and underrating Ponting. Or he's just trolling. Bit surprised that he's not really been called out for saying something that preposterous.
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watson
Banned
A peak lasting a full decade is not a bad indicator of a batsman skill. So if we look at the 'Adjusted Average' for each of the 3 batsman in question we get;
'Best Decade Average'
Bradman = 103.93
Sobers = 73.75
Ponting = 60.13
Blogs: Test players: a look into their best decades | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo
Therefore, in crude mathmatical terms the gap between Bradman and his nearest rival Sobers is 29%. And the gap between Sobers and Ponting is 18%.
I like these two percentages because they correspond to my intuition. That is, Bradman's batsmanship is about a third better than Sobers, and Sobers' batsmanship is about a fifth better than Ponting's.
And if you don't understand or like the term 'intuition' then too bad.
'Best Decade Average'
Bradman = 103.93
Sobers = 73.75
Ponting = 60.13
Blogs: Test players: a look into their best decades | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo
Therefore, in crude mathmatical terms the gap between Bradman and his nearest rival Sobers is 29%. And the gap between Sobers and Ponting is 18%.
I like these two percentages because they correspond to my intuition. That is, Bradman's batsmanship is about a third better than Sobers, and Sobers' batsmanship is about a fifth better than Ponting's.
And if you don't understand or like the term 'intuition' then too bad.
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