What does AB De Villiers need achieve to surpass Viv Richards as the ODI's greatest

[harsh.ag]

Quite funny that you'd compare a number 5 to a number 3 about number of centuries. ABD gets the same and even higher average than kohli chasing since 2008 is because he remains not out on higher 50s instead of 100s because he comes in at 5 similar to what Dhoni does inside Asia. The only chances for such players to get centuries is when the whole team collapse making their chasing centuries quite memorable like Dhoni 185 etc

Since 2008 Kohli played 104 matches chasing and ABD played just 74. That tells you the team mentality as well, South Africa would rather defend than chase where as India would choose the opposite

All of which is to say Kohli has achieved greater things as a chaser. That's all.

Also ABdV has played most of his games at 4, not 5. That too by choice. He could have played in the top 3 like most of the best batsmen do. It's not like he's a specialist or anything. He's more than good enough to bat at number 3.

 

[HashiraMadara]

And what I'm saying is that SA + Aus includes Aus, 50% of the batsman compared to Ponting in this stat are guaranteed to be good, the other 50% may be good/average/bad. For players like Kohli/ABDV, 50% of the batsman are guaranteed to be average, the other 50% may be good/average/bad, So they have a huge headstart on Ponting already.

I will slowly rhetorically ask you again: Mike Hussey comes after Ponting. Ponting gets first chance to contribute 100% of the times than Hussey because Hussey bats lower. Hussey manages to contribue to total match scores way more than Ponting. The bloke still founds excuses for Ponting or in simple : I let you talk to the chick first 100% times we see chicks and I still manage to have more chicks than you how can I even consider you a part of elite chick squad?

 

[HashiraMadara]

All of which is to say Kohli has achieved greater things as a chaser. That's all.

Also ABdV has played most of his games at 4, not 5. That too by choice. He could have played in the top 3 like most of the best batsmen do. It's not like he's a specialist or anything. He's more than good enough to bat at number 3.

He batted lower by choice? Say you are kidding. ABD was an opener. Failed as an opener and was chucked to 4/5 because South Africa had a solid number 3 who was their all time greatest run scorer in all formats Jacques Kallis. South Africa chooses to bat first because their bowling was good at restricting even though that's changing these days

 

[Pratters]

How has ABD performance been in crucial world cup matches? Viv was terrific in them.

 

[viriya]

Averaged a shade under 36 in his first 10 years. Never put together a consistent run of multiple great seasons before 2010.

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Sanga was always an average ODI batsman, or maybe above average but his last 2 years in ODIs, culminating in the World Cup 2015 with 4 hundreds put in a higher level and further demonstrates the importance of World Cups. Just the fact that more people watch and remember them just gives you those extra points in such discussions.

How is having an unconventional career where you constantly improve a black mark?

If anything it's a positive since it shows that he could've played for even longer at a higher standard.

People are way too married to the standard career trajectory. It's the overall numbers that matter assuming the same era.

 

[viriya]

Averaged a shade under 36 in his first 10 years. Never put together a consistent run of multiple great seasons before 2010.

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

He may have retired 3 months into 2015, but the majority of 2015 ODIs were 3 months into it. Anyway, Sanga started his career in 00, and most of the years of 90s (which was the period of Sach/Ponting which didn't overlap with Sanga) averages 32-33, OTOH the period of Sanga which doesn't overlap with Sach/Ponting averages about 35-36 (and 38 for 2015), now this is the difference for average batsmen, For better batsmen you'd expect the divergence to be a bit more given that they have higher averages.

Now check this out - Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Practically everyone with high average has played in the same years I mentioned above, surely it's no coincidence?

Additionally the gap in your only 15/16 being above average is that even before 2015 - Amla/Kohli/Dhoni/ABD were all averaging 51+ with S/Rs of 90 or more so clearly they should be the undisputed GOATs.

Kohli not having played enough matches also seems a bit flimsy to me - He is already #4 on the list of top hundred scorers and #28 in terms of run scoring and He's played about the same amount of matches as Richards. Amla is not far behind in either of the categories.

Amla, Kohli and AB all have a chance of being called GOAT so that argument that their records are inflated since they can't be considered GOAT material doesn't make sense.

I already consider AB to be the GOAT, and the only reason Kohli and Amla are not in the same conversation is because they haven't even played 200 ODIs yet.

 

[Pratters]

For me it's annoying how every thing has to be stats related. Cricket players can't be assessed by stats.

 

[viriya]

Do you ever bat for any players who are not Sri Lankan?

I've been calling AB goat this whole thread.. why does it have to be assumed to be a nationality bias?

 

[HashiraMadara]

For me it's annoying how every thing has to be stats related. Cricket players can't be assessed by stats.

I guess that's a way of admitting that ABD stats are unparalleled. Now it's all a matter of how would he have fared in the Richards days of grueling pitches. WHICH IS WHAT THIS THREAD WAS ABOUT FROM THE START BEFORE SOMEONE DERAILED IT!!!!

 

[harsh.ag]

He batted lower by choice? Say you are kidding. ABD was an opener. Failed as an opener and was chucked to 4/5 because South Africa had a solid number 3 who was their all time greatest run scorer in all formats Jacques Kallis. South Africa chooses to bat first because their bowling was good at restricting even though that's changing these days

Makes sense wrt why he's batted at 4/5 till Kallis was there. Does make one wonder why he hasn't moved up to 3 after Kallis' departure. Again, not his fault if SA prefer to bat first (though so did India until recently), but it does mean that Kohli gets the title of the best chaser ever in ODIs, and by quite a margin.

 

[viriya]

Sangakkara was a good ODI player but he really doesn't belong in the GOAT discussion. Apart from his final year, he's never really dominated games.

No one is calling him GOAT. Just comparable to Ponting who is not in the GOAT discussion either.

 

[Pratters]

I guess that's a way of admitting that ABD stats are unparalleled. Now it's all a matter of how would he have fared in the Richards days of grueling pitches. WHICH IS WHAT THIS THREAD WAS ABOUT FROM THE START BEFORE SOMEONE DERAILED IT!!!!

No not really. It's a general observation. My suggestion to you is to watch cricket instead of blindly reading stats.

 

[Pratters]

Await response from the thread starter about AB v Viv in crucial world cup games.

 

[HashiraMadara]

How has ABD performance been in crucial world cup matches? Viv was terrific in them.

The word crucial is subjective and not discrete. It's a way of disregarding someone's contribution by simply labeling it not "crucial". Anyways here is his World Cup record
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Pratters]

What about knock out games or games in which if the team does not win, the team is out of the tournament..

 

[HashiraMadara]

Await response from the thread starter about AB v Viv in crucial world cup games.

Viv Richards played 6 knock out games in the World Cup at an average of 75.75 and ABD played 3 at an average of 57.10

 

[srbhkshk]

Await response from the thread starter about AB v Viv in crucial world cup games.

I'll give you the answer to that, AB in World Cups is a WI basher, his average against major 8 teams is a ridiculous 77 @ 120, what's even more ridiculous though is that it drops to 43 @ 104 the moment you drop WI from the calculations. So in essence ABD is still a good batsman in World Cups but not really as good as his career numbers.

Viv has a far more balanced record.

 

[Pratters]

World Cup 2007 semi: 15 off 34 balls. SA is knocked out after being 149 all out.
World Cup 2011 quarter final: 35 off 40 balls. SA is knocked out after being 172 all out.
World Cup 2015 quarter final: did not bat.
World Cup 2015 semi final: 65 not out off 45 balls. SA knocked out again.

See, you will say I am harsh picking these matches. However, your question is 'what will AB have to do to be considered better than Viv?' Viv was terrific in World Cup crucial games. World Cup wins matter. It even mattered for Tendulkar's career. It matters for Messi's career. It matters for AB's career for sure.

 

[HashiraMadara]

I'll give you the answer to that, AB in World Cups is a WI basher, his average against major 8 teams is a ridiculous 77 @ 120, what's even more ridiculous though is that it drops to 43 @ 104 the moment you drop WI from the calculations. So in essence ABD is still a good batsman in World Cups but not really as good as his career numbers.

Viv has a far more balanced record.

So in those 3 times he faced WI in the world cup he pounded 415 runs something that has not been replicated in any team. I'll let you look for another excuse
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

oh yeah Ricky Ponting met them 4 times and manufactured 157 runs at decrepit average of 39.1 and Tendulkar 3 games with 76 runs

 

[HashiraMadara]

World Cup 2007 semi: 15 off 34 balls. SA is knocked out after being 149 all out.
World Cup 2011 quarter final: 35 off 40 balls. SA is knocked out after being 172 all out.
World Cup 2015 quarter final: did not bat.
World Cup 2015 semi final: 65 not out off 45 balls. SA knocked out again.

See, you will say I am harsh picking these matches. However, your question is 'what will AB have to do to be considered better than Viv?' Viv was terrific in World Cup crucial games. World Cup wins matter. It even mattered for Tendulkar's career. It matters for Messi's career. It matters for AB's career for sure.

That's more like it. 1 reason Viv is ahead of ABD is basically his world cup record. So if he pulls a superman in 2019 will you regard them as equals? (just filtering reasons and excuses)