What does AB De Villiers need achieve to surpass Viv Richards as the ODI's greatest

[Adders]

And generally your No 6's and 7's don't get to score "wanker runs" to boost their average like top order batsmen do.

 

[Red]

FWIW I don't think there's "wanker runs" in ODIs, is there?

 

[Adders]

Good point and well made.

 

[Adders]

Jesus ***** that is living proof that you will like any post.........that was a dead set brain fart from me and you still liked it!!!

 

[cnerd123]

Jesus ***** that is living proof that you will like any post.........that was a dead set brain fart from me and you still liked it!!!

I actually agree

If your bowling attack has gotten together and bundled out the opposition for 120, your number 6 and 7s aren't going to get to go out there and pick up an easy risk-free 50 against a bowling attack going through the motions.

Likewise, Top Order batsmen get first crack at filling their boots in friendly conditions against friendly bowling. 6 and 7 are stuck batting in the death or coming in to stabilise/rebuild in tougher conditions against bowlers who have their tail up from ripping a side apart. They deserve their not outs.

 

[Pratters]

Wow yes lets hold it against a batsman for being so good that bowlers couldn't dismiss him.

There's a reason batting averages are calculated like this. Being not out at the end of an innings is, for the most part, a good thing.

Also I like this new guy lets keep him around. He's even inventing his own (flawed) statistical systems. I'm a fan.

Not outs do boost the average. Chanderpaul wasn't as good as his average suggested when he had all those not outs for instance. Dhoni's away average is boosted by 20 percent not outs which is a very high number.

 

[Shri]

Choke is such a misused word in sport.

He's from SA tbf. They choke on choke.

 

[Pratters]

Haha, yeah.

 

[honestbharani]

Exactly, unless the player in question is a renowned game loser, not outs for a #6 are gold, not something to deride, and surely they'll have a better average if they don't get out, Nothing wrong with that.

Also, what ***** said needs to be considered too. For every occasion a #6 players gets to remain not out to boost his average, there is also am occasion where he comes in with very few balls left and has to throw his bat around without getting the luxury to get set, which most top order players get.

 

[Pratters]

He also gets some easy runs in the belt when the match is almost won and it isn't competitive any more.

 

[DriveClub]

Ab is a choker, viv anyday

 

[cnerd123]

He also gets some easy runs in the belt when the match is almost won and it isn't competitive any more.

yes. So basically there are many factors at play, which is why any effort to blanketly say "oh look this guy has so many not outs his average should be discredited as a result" is a ****ing weak argument. Unless you've actually checked the facts, you should just assume they all cancel out in the end and take the average for what it's worth. If you can't substantiate that claim with some real evidence then don't make it.

Then again, since when have you ever substantiated any claim with evidence...

 

[Pratters]

yes. So basically there are many factors at play, which is why any effort to blanketly say "oh look this guy has so many not outs his average should be discredited as a result" is a ****ing weak argument. Unless you've actually checked the facts, you should just assume they all cancel out in the end and take the average for what it's worth. If you can't substantiate that claim with some real evidence then don't make it.

Then again, since when have you ever substantiated any claim with evidence...

Not outs boost average, unfairly so. Chanders and Dhoni away from India are best examples whether you like it or not. If Dhoni was so good abroad, we would think more of our batting for the Champions Trophy.

 

[Pratters]

What evidence do you want ? He hasn't even scored a century away from subcontinent and he has been playing odi cricket for ever. In modern age when making runs isn't exactly tough given the scoring rates. Are you telling me he never had opportunity to score a 100 away from subcontinent???

 

[cnerd123]

yea no not engaging in a debate with you lol

Just needed to point out for anyone reading who may think you have a point about Not Outs that you actually don't.

 

[Pratters]

Such a dependable player MS, outside Asia. Can back him to make a 100 when required. Great strike rate of 84 too. Fades in comparison to his career strike rate of 100.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Are you seriously going to continue arguing that a sr of 84 is bad? The hundreds argument is more valid, even though I don't necessarily agree with it.

Regardless, I don't think Dhoni's record away from Asia is that much worse than Sanga's to overturn how much better Dhoni's overall record is.

 

[Pratters]

Strike rate of 84 coming down the order at 5 and 6 is not that great really in today's cricket.

 

[Pratters]

If MS had a better record abroad, I would put him ahead of Sanga. However, not as it stands. His technique issues exist and that's why the lower strike rate and not being able to make bigger scores. It's not a coincidence.

 

[cnerd123]

back on topic - I'd like to throw support behind the arguments that Viv was a pioneer and unlike anyone in his era vs ABDV who is essentially just the best version of what an ODI batsman should look like in his era. It's like Viv defined the genre whereas ABDV just perfected it. I also support the argument that ABDV hasn't really done much in crucial ODIs, and has scored tons and broken records mainly against sub-par bowling attacks.

In terms of skill no doubt ABDV is the GOAT, but in terms of actual performances I feel he is kinda underwhelming, and that's despite phenomenal numbers.