Wastemen etc

[indiaholic]

Has Steyn had a run of 8 consecutive games where he was that impressive? Part of the psychological impact of Johnson during that time was how inevitable it all seemed.

Steyn has historically had times where for a spell or so he would look innocuous and then the next spell would be a demon straight out of hell..

 

[Spark]

Johnson had snapshots of being very good but largely a mediocre, unfulfilled career but he was a very good stop gap at a time when Australia were reeling from not having enough pace quality.



Nope.

I don't think he gets into a team or a squad where there's McGrath, Warne, Lee, Gillespie, and McGill (at times). Plus, with all that pressure to do as well as thoseg uys, I think Johnson would crack. He wasn't the strongest guy mentally.



Not for a long period in the middle of his career. Without checking cricinfo, there was an Ashes series (think in England) where he looked a pathetic sight at times.

Man it must be something to have 300+ wickets at sub-30 be described as a "mediocre career". Also, the bolded is bizarre nonsense. Johnson struggled with the pressure of being the main man, his best periods were when he either had others around him who took the spotlight or he had high quality bowling at the other end to fall back on (Siddle and Harris)

 

[TheJediBrah]

I watched almost all of that series & it was truly impressive bowling. But saying it's the best anyone's ever bowled at their peak (assuming Stephen has been watching cricket for at least a decade) is a massive stretch.

I'd say if you really want to answer the question properly, which also factors conditions, then some of Steyn's performances in the SC were even more impressive for a start, and that's forgetting about the peaks of bowlers like Marshall, Hadlee, Ambrose, Akram & McGath to name a few.

Had Stephen said it was the most menacing he'd seen a bowler at their peak, that would be a slightly different argument, but his statement was, he'd never seen a bowler 'as good' in their peak.

Now if you can find any non-Australian who's actually watched a decent amount of cricket make that same statement, I'll be extremely surprised. Hence why I'll say it again, he's either biased or hasn't seen much cricket in the last decade or to say that.

Averaging sub-14 in a 5 match series, on Australian pitches (including 7-40 on an Adelaide road), almost single-handedly destroying a very good opposition team both physically and psychologically, ending players careers.

Steyn's been better over a longer period of time, obviously, but I'll say again, nothing Steyn has done even comes close

 

[vcs]

Yeah, his action made it much, much worse. This clip of his bouncers in the first test of that series is like watching a car crash. It's awful but you can't look away.

Imagine facing that stuff without a helmet!

 

[vcs]

Also, I love this video, the soundtrack adds something to the chilling feeling of watching those batsmen inches away from being killed.

 

[Zinzan]

Averaging sub-14 in a 5 match series, on Australian pitches (including 7-40 on an Adelaide road), almost single-handedly destroying a very good opposition team both physically and psychologically, ending players careers.

Steyn's been better over a longer period of time, obviously, but I'll say again, nothing Steyn has done even comes close

You can keep saying it until the cows come home, but find me a couple of non-Australians, who've watched cricket for at least a decade, who'll say that's the best (not most menacing, but best) any bowler has bowled at their peak and you might have a ghost of a point.

The 5 test series argument is both irrelevant & unfair considering only 2 sides really get to play 5 tests series, so you can't hold that against the likes of Murali, Hadlee, Akram to name a few.

I haven't had a reply from Stephen, but considering he's been a member here since '07, I'll assume he's been watching cricket for at least a decade, & it's a huge stretch to say that was the best anyone's bowled at there peak in that time.

 

[TheJediBrah]

lol I don't know why you think it's a discussion, I'm just stating an out and out fact

instead of an essay-length irrelevant reply why don't you just give me an example of a series where Steyn was as good or better, if you think it exists. I'm happy to be proven wrong but you're not telling me anything relevant.

 

[Gnske]

Reminder the only thing Steyn has ever done was get Hafeez out a bunch of times.

 

[Zinzan]

lol I don't know why you think it's a discussion, I'm just stating an out and out fact

instead of an essay-length irrelevant reply why don't you just give me an example of a series where Steyn was as good or better, if you think it exists. I'm happy to be proven wrong but you're not telling me anything relevant.

And how would that prove you wrong, when it's an opinion? I was just very surprised Stephen said it's the best he's ever seen anyone bowl at their peak.

I threw Steyn's name in the mix as one off the top of my head because he's been the best fast bowler in the world for so long...but very well... If I cited Steyn's 20 wickets @ 12 & 13 wickets @ 11 in consecutive homes series against Pakistan & NZ (to try to match Johnson's 5 test series) then it's certainly similar statistically, but I don't think that proves anything anyway.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Sorry, but you either can't have seen much Test cricket in your lifetime or you're just being biased. Simple as that.

Johnson was a very good Test bowler and could be extremely menacing at his best, nobody would dispute that. But the best you've ever seen?

You can't have seen Steyn at his best for starters.

Nah I agree with him. I've watched since the early 90s. So I've watched almost the entirety of McGrath, ambrose, Steyn, Wasim and waqar's careers. But I'd still say MJ of 2013-14 was arguably the best stretch of 7-8 matches I've ever seen. I think I've seen bowlers bowl better over a short series like Steyn vs india in 2010-11 or broad again vs India the same year, but Johnson was just terrifying. I admit there's a tendency to overrate Johnson's style of devastating bowling st his peak, when compared do say, a McGrath or Steyn, since it's arguably no more effective but it is what it is. The psychological effect of him steaming in was obvious. It was genuinely scary to watch and I have no doubt most of the English and South African batsmen were terrified of facing him.

 

[Victor Ian]

I don't think Hadlee and Akram bowled in the last decade. As for Murali, I'm sure he must have had some amazing spells, but I think you are being rather semantic. Is the point to make people grovel and say "alright, I admit I should have added the word 'menacing' in there somewhere". I'll say it for them....'menacing!'.

I like the idea that menace makes for better bowling. Sure, Murali often made a batsman look like a doofus who has no idea, but in the last 10 years, only Johnson made batsman look as if they wished they did not have to walk out to the middle in the first place. In the last 10 years, only Johnson reminded us what cricket looked like in the 70's and 80's.

 

[Spark]

I think Steyn has done, in isolation, things which are equally or more absurd (bowling sides out for sub-50 totals the main one) but I don't think you'd find an 8-Test streak like Johnson had. Steyn was more consistently excellent and wasn't so reliant on that sort of absurd, utterly destructive streaks.

And how would that prove you wrong, when it's an opinion? I was just very surprised Stephen said it's the best he's ever seen anyone bowl at their peak.

I threw Steyn's name in the mix as one off the top of my head because he's been the best fast bowler in the world for so long...but very well... If I cited Steyn's 20 wickets @ 12 & 13 wickets @ 11 in consecutive homes series against Pakistan & NZ (to try to match Johnson's 5 test series) then it's certainly similar statistically, but I don't think that proves anything anyway.

I think statistics become kind of irrelevant at some point when wickets are taken so cheaply tbh.

 

[OverratedSanity]

BTW, I don't think it's captured by averages but Steyn vs India in 2010-11 was the best he's ever bowled. Every new ball spell he bowled that series was almost literally unplayable. It took Sachin and vvs playing some ridiculous knocks to prevent him from taking 27 wickets @ 11 or something crazy like that.

 

[Zinzan]

I don't think Hadlee and Akram bowled in the last decade. As for Murali, I'm sure he must have had some amazing spells, but I think you are being rather semantic. Is the point to make people grovel and say "alright, I admit I should have added the word 'menacing' in there somewhere". I'll say it for them....'menacing!'.
.

Yeah I do actually think there's a distinction between the two words, menacing and best,. Thomson was as menacing as anyone in the 70s, but that didn't make him the best.

Anyway, fair enough if Stephen thinks it's the best. I did follow that whole Ashes series very closely, and it was without doubt the most menacing I've seen a bowlers for years & in hindsight maybe I'm underrating it in terms of it also being one of the very 'best' someone's bowled in the last decade.

 

[Burgey]

Imagine facing that stuff without a helmet!

Yeah it's bloody terrifying. There's a clip of Thomson ripping into the Windies in 75-76 with Tony Cozier, Clive Lloyd and Viv speaking about it. I'll see if I can find it. I think when you hear players of their magnitude speaking almost in awe, you have to accept it's every bit as scary as it looks to those of us who wouldn't even see the ball.

 

[TheJediBrah]

And how would that prove you wrong, when it's an opinion? I was just very surprised Stephen said it's the best he's ever seen anyone bowl at their peak.

I threw Steyn's name in the mix as one off the top of my head because he's been the best fast bowler in the world for so long...but very well... If I cited Steyn's 20 wickets @ 12 & 13 wickets @ 11 in consecutive homes series against Pakistan & NZ (to try to match Johnson's 5 test series) then it's certainly similar statistically, but I don't think that proves anything anyway.

wickets against minnows don't count

 

[Zinzan]

Yeah it's bloody terrifying. There's a clip of Thomson ripping into the Windies in 75-76 with Tony Cozier, Clive Lloyd and Viv speaking about it. I'll see if I can find it. I think when you hear players of their magnitude speaking almost in awe, you have to accept it's every bit as scary as it looks to those of us who wouldn't even see the ball.

The only thing missing from that clip is the lasting impression it left...

 

[Daemon]

You can't consistently play bowling like Johnson dished up in 13/14. Its not physically possible when you combine the pace with that action, accuracy and some movement. The fact Harris and to an extent Siddle were so good that series also meant you couldn't just sit on Johnson and feed off the others. It was a perfect storm that series. Fmd I hate England but even I felt sorry for them having to face it. There's something horrific about facing someone who you know is too quick for you. To have it happen to test players is a pretty rare thing.

Unless you're AB de Villiers

 

[OverratedSanity]

Unless you're AB

Fixed

 

[Burgey]

Unless you're AB de Villiers

Yeah, in fairness he played two knocks that series which were brilliant, but Johnson also got him out four digs out of six. Obviously you can play a freak knock because, let's face it, the best batsmen aren't mugs and when they're on they're on. What I'm saying is you can't produce it consistently against bowling of that kind. I'm not doing the "take out the good digs and you're left with him being crap" argument either. I'm just saying it's really not possible to do it.

The fact such bowling happens so rarely probably means that theory I have can't accurately be tested tbh. You just don't see bowling like that very often at all.

Anyway, here's that clip of Asutralia v WI in 1975-76 I mentioned before. The ball Clive Lloyd cops at 3.05 is horrendous. Dunno how he walked away.