Wastemen etc

[stephen]

I've been watching cricket since I was a kid but can only really remember stuff from the 90s or later, and obviously most of the cricket I've watched has been in Australia. (I can only remember Malcolm Marshall at the very tall end of his career and because of that rate Ambrose higher).

Johnson in that Ashes series was the most difficult bowler to face I've ever seen. He was terrifying to modern batsmen in modern protective gear and I would have been unable to watch him bowl like that post - Phil Hughes. But not only was he physically terrifying, he was accurate and took tons of wickets (more than Harris, who I rate right up there near the top of pace bowlers I've seen). England were a very good batting side before that serious and he made them look like minnows.

I realise it's a subjective opinion and it should by no means diminish the awesomeness of Steyn (who I rate as the best South African bowler ever and behind only McGrath and Ambrose among bowlers I've seen). Steyn on the subcontinent was truly amazing and it was seeing him demolish India that convinced me he was an all time great quick and one of the best in the history of the game.

 

[Zinzan]

I've been watching cricket since I was a kid but can only really remember stuff from the 90s or later, and obviously most of the cricket I've watched has been in Australia. (I can only remember Malcolm Marshall at the very tall end of his career and because of that rate Ambrose higher).

Johnson in that Ashes series was the most difficult bowler to face I've ever seen. He was terrifying to modern batsmen in modern protective gear and I would have been unable to watch him bowl like that post - Phil Hughes. But not only was he physically terrifying, he was accurate and took tons of wickets (more than Harris, who I rate right up there near the top of pace bowlers I've seen). England were a very good batting side before that serious and he made them look like minnows.

I realise it's a subjective opinion and it should by no means diminish the awesomeness of Steyn (who I rate as the best South African bowler ever and behind only McGrath and Ambrose among bowlers I've seen). Steyn on the subcontinent was truly amazing and it was seeing him demolish India that convinced me he was an all time great quick and one of the best in the history of the game.

Yeah that's fair enough. One of the great things about this forum is you can be convinced out of an opinion by some good arguments & I can now accept why someone would hold that view.

 

[honestbharani]

Its all about who watched it live guys. I watched bits and pieces of that Ashes and so, to me, some of Steyn's spells were even more amazing. But there is also a difference here. MJ was physically threatening batsmen, Steyn was not always doing that. It was one of the number of tools he had at his disposal but for MJ it was the only one and by God did he use it well during that period of 8 tests. In terms of overall fast bowling excellence, I am sure Steyn had a number of 8 test periods like that one but as someone posted earlier, facts and figures wont do justice to the impact MJ actually had in those tests. He was terrifyingly good and it was obvious even to me, who was watching only patches of that series.

 

[Furball]

You can keep saying it until the cows come home, but find me a couple of non-Australians, who've watched cricket for at least a decade, who'll say that's the best (not most menacing, but best) any bowler has bowled at their peak and you might have a ghost of a point.

The 5 test series argument is both irrelevant & unfair considering only 2 sides really get to play 5 tests series, so you can't hold that against the likes of Murali, Hadlee, Akram to name a few.

I haven't had a reply from Stephen, but considering he's been a member here since '07, I'll assume he's been watching cricket for at least a decade, & it's a huge stretch to say that was the best anyone's bowled at there peak in that time.

Hi

 

[Zinzan]

Hi

Lol, too late, I'd already conceded the point. Better luck next time

 

[stephen]

Yeah that's fair enough. One of the great things about this forum is you can be convinced out of an opinion by some good arguments & I can now accept why someone would hold that view.

Yeah and the forum is at its best when there's banter, education and differing viewpoints being shared and understood.

 

[indiaholic]

Whoa! Group hug?

 

[Zinzan]

Whoa! Group hug?

Furball can that hug offer up of my behalf.

He could do with one.

 

[slippy888]

Matthew Elliott

Still waiting for a recall to Australia team

 

[TheJediBrah]

This sickens me

someone start a fight

 

[Zinzan]

This sickens me

someone start a fight

Actually I've changed my mind. Wagner's 3-57 in the recent Test against Pakistan makes Johnson circa 2013/14 look like a big girls blouse by comparison.

 

[quincywagstaff]

Johnson had one of the greatest 18 month purple patches of all time, but before that "He bowls to the left, he bowls to the right...."

Lee had one glorious summer after McGrath retired, bowling with Stuart Clark ( a bit like Johnson and Harris perhaps).

Lee was great in the 2005/06 season as well, first time he'd bowled consistently well in Tests since his 1999-2000 beginning.

 

[quincywagstaff]

I reckon Johnson spent too much of his career trying to be a swing bowler. On occasion it worked superbly (South Africa 2009, Perth 2010/11) but his technique was too erratic for it work consistently and when he wasn't swinging it, he provided easy runs.

When he returned to the side from 2012 onwards, he just seemed to focus on being a pure pace and intimidation bowler and he seemed to revel in it, with the obvious 2013/14 peak. Even in his final Test innings (2nd innings v NZ in Perth) where he'd had a horror 1st innings, he was still able to intimidate the NZ bats with quality short deliveries. If he'd focussed on being that style of bowler for longer, he could've even had a better career than he did.

 

[Red]

I don't know if much was made of this during the last test, but Lyon overtook Grimmett to become third on the list of Australia's all time spinner wicket takers.

30 odd more will see him overtake Benaud and be second to Warne. Time will tell then if he has another 450-ish wickets in him to overtake Warne.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Furball]

Only 5 bowlers this decade have taken more Test wickets than he has, and those 5 plus Lyon are the only bowlers to have taken more than 200.

 

[quincywagstaff]

The thing about Lyon is that he seems to be at the same stage for 4 years or so. A pretty good bowler who people overrate when he has a good Test or two and underrate when he struggles in a match.

It just seems to be the same cycle with him – generally does well in Australia chipping in with key wickets when he’s a support act to the pacemen and doing his job. But when he plays in Asia/Middle East and he’s more expected to be the key bowler for Australia, he hardly ever delivers (indeed his debut Test in Sri Lanka in 2011 is probably still his best effort in the region). The focus being on him to deliver seems to be something Lyon really struggles with.

Even the commentary on him seems to be the same. I swear that each of the past 5 seasons the Ch 9 comms bang on endlessly about how he should bowl a more aggressive line, bowl the ball slower; eventually Lyon does for a Test or two leading to the comms gushing that he’s now got the right mindset. But when the next summer goes along the cycle begins again.

Going by Lyon’s career trajectory, I’m going to guess he’s going to have a fine series against Pakistan, then struggle badly in India and the same debate about him will begin again next summer.

Re: the oft-said thing recently about him taking over 200 Test wickets as proof he’s high-quality: well to an extent but when you play 60 Tests as a spinner of course. It’s a bit like saying a testament to Shane Watson’s quality is that he scored over 3500 runs. Surprisingly enough, Lyon has a lower wickets-per-Tests average than his predecessor Nathan Hauritz, someone no one ever rated.

Lyon has been a solid bowler but he hasn’t raised his game a level or two that looked possible early in his career. He’ll generally help Australia do well in home conditions but I can’t see Australia improving in Asia while he’s the main spinner.

 

[Starfighter]

I don't think wickets per test is that good a measure of quality. In any case Lyon's w/t (3.62) is better than Mushtaq Ahmed (3.56) and Abdul Qadir (3.52) - the latter of whom is often rated as one great spin bowlers and as far as conventional off spin goes better than Mallet (3.47) our previous most prolific post war off spinner.
And none of these are bad figures.

 

[Shady Slim]

tbf he has a style conducive to spin here and not as great for spin in the subcontinent

 

[bagapath]

by any standards, 300 plus wickets at a 28 point something average is something anyone could be proud of. my only issue with his record is the not so glowing overseas stats. leaving aside the legends like hadlees and marshalls and mcgraths, he is very comfortably placed among the very best fast bowlers in test history

 

[TheJediBrah]

by any standards, 300 plus wickets at a 28 point something average is something anyone could be proud of. my only issue with his record is the not so glowing overseas stats. leaving aside the legends like hadlees and marshalls and mcgraths, he is very comfortably placed among the very best fast bowlers in test history

I reckon a big part of this wAs that he just couldn't bowl with anything other than a kookaburra ball