Viv vs Lara vs Smith: Who has the best series performances?

[kyear2]

Viv also had much more support though and personally don't think scoring faster is that important here.

Do you think it's "that" important anywhere?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Do you think it's "that" important anywhere?

In matches like the 2nd India-Bangladesh Test for India.

 

[kyear2]

I disagree about the scoring rate.

It was ahead of his era. As a batting achievement, it's incredibly difficult to do so against a top attack over an entire series.

I don't see how this argument is difficult to grasp tbh

Somehow Thompson on his own is a handful, but add the GOAT and Hogg and it's not that formidable.

Facing unlimited bouncers from at times quarter way down the pitch, and helmetless at that, and dominating? Not to add cementing your team as the best in the world...

And on top of that, doing it at a pace that can take the opposition out of a game in a session.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I do love myself some passive aggressive posts......

 

[kyear2]

Wasn't very passive at all.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Damn, I really forgot that Viv batted for a grand total of 4 innings that series, Lloyd Kallicharran and Greenidge all were pretty great and Bruce Laird scored 46 runs less against a clearly better attack.

 

[subshakerz]

Damn, I really forgot that Viv batted for a grand total of 4 innings that series, Lloyd Kallicharran and Greenidge all were pretty great and Bruce Laird scored 46 runs less against a clearly better attack.

Lloyd and Greenidge only meaningfully scored in an innings each. Laird played six innings to four for Viv.

Viv scoring nearly 100 an innings in just four in those circumstances is why this series is getting rated that high.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Lloyd and Greenidge only meaningfully scored in an innings each. Laird played six innings to four for Viv.

Viv scoring nearly 100 an innings in just four in those circumstances is why this series is getting rated that high.

Lloyd scored in both the innings of the 3rd Test. He (67), Kallicharran (50) and Greenidge (37) all had plenty good series. Never said the series was anything but ATG, but it wasn't particularly low scoring (lowest score for a WI completed innings was 328, all 3 others around 400 or more) or close (like WI blew out Australia). And well, that post was may have been a bit rage bait.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Lloyd scored in both the innings of the 3rd Test. He (67), Kallicharran (50) and Greenidge (37) all had plenty good series. Never said the series was anything but ATG, but it wasn't particularly low scoring (lowest score for a WI completed innings was 328, all 3 others around 400 or more) or close (like WI blew out Australia). And well, that post was may have been a bit rage bait.

You said Viv had great support. He scored 396, more than double what the best WI bat scored despite playing only 4 innings. And Richards was suffering from back problems and groin issues throughout the series

 

[subshakerz]

You said Viv had great support. He scored 396, more than double what the best WI bat scored despite playing only 4 innings. And Richards was suffering from back problems and groin issues throughout the series

Here is the Wisden report of the time. Peak Viv was something else.

'Few individuals have so dominated a season as Richards did this one. Statistics help tell some of the story. In the Tests, he scored 140 at Brisbane, 96 at Melbourne, and 76 and 74 at Adelaide. In the World Series Cup, his sequence was 9, 153 not out, 62, 85 not out, 88, 23 and 65. Outside the Tests he batted in only two first-class innings, scoring 79 and 127. He gathered his runs with the command and range of strokes of the truly great batsmen, scoring freely against bowling of every type. That he has suffering at the time from groin and back trouble so acute that he was often forced to limp painfully emphasised the extraordinary nature of his performance.

The batting of his team-mates suffered by comparison. None of them could find consistent form although Lloyd, at the end of a season troubled by injury and self-doubt, contributed a vital and typically belligerent century on the first day of the final Test. Greenidge improved steadily from an uncertain beginning and played two sterling innings in the one-day finals, while Kallicharran chose the very last opportunity to register his only significant score of the series, a century in the second innings of the final Test. In the field, Lloyd always had at his disposal an almost irresistible form of attack, he and his co-selectors adhering rigidly to a policy of pace to the exclusion of spin.'

 

[Kirkut]

I don't see how this argument is difficult to grasp tbh

Somehow Thompson on his own is a handful, but add the GOAT and Hogg and it's not that formidable.

Facing unlimited bouncers from at times quarter way down the pitch, and helmetless at that, and dominating? Not to add cementing your team as the best in the world...

And on top of that, doing it at a pace that can take the opposition out of a game in a session.

There it confirms my speculation that runs against pace bowling count more than spin.

Hence, Smith 2019 Ashes > Lara 2001 in SL

 

[Kirkut]

And let's not give Viv extra points all the time for not wearing a helmet. He was the greatest player of fast bowling no doubt, but not wearing a helmet was purely his discretion without being forced upon him.

 

[capt_Luffy]

You said Viv had great support. He scored 396, more than double what the best WI bat scored despite playing only 4 innings. And Richards was suffering from back problems and groin issues throughout the series

Lloyd scored 202 in 3 innings (avg 67), as did Kallicharran (50) but in 5. Richards was ATG there, no doubt, top of the echelon stuff, definitely top 10 ever; but it wasn't necessarily a one man show like Lara in 2001 or Smith 2017; where the next highest scorer Renshaw averaged 29, Handscomb 28, Wade 32, Warner 24 and Marsh 18. Maxwell averaged 39, but scored less than ⅓ Smith's runs and his contribution was basically a century.

 

[Kirkut]

Do you rate Smith 2017 over Smith 2019?

I might go with Smith 2017 over his 2019 batting in Ashes, purely from a technical perspective only (ignoring the series pressure and nature of rivalry).

Technical adjustments to lateral movement would be required in the UK as well for an Aussie batsmen, but the bounce and carry would be slightly lower than what they are used to in Aus. India on the other hand is a completely different territory with the ball turning square and keeping low, more adjustments needed.

 

[subshakerz]

There it confirms my speculation that runs against pace bowling count more than spin.

Hence, Smith 2019 Ashes > Lara 2001 in SL

You would think that but Lara 2001 gets rated super high on this board.

 

[subshakerz]

And let's not give Viv extra points all the time for not wearing a helmet. He was the greatest player of fast bowling no doubt, but not wearing a helmet was purely his discretion without being forced upon him.

He gets extra points for being injured throughout the series. He was literally limping.

 

[The Sean]

I wish I knew Rodney Hogg personally, so that I could tell him to log in here and get an ego boost seeing how heavily he is being overrated in this discussion.

Hogg exploded onto the scene in 78/79 and his first seven Tests (48 wickets at 13) were spectacular, but he was never remotely the same force again – his last 31 Tests yielded 75 wickets at 38. In the series in question, troubled by injury and nowhere near his best, he took just 2 wickets at 62 and his final act of the series was being taken for 59 runs off just six (wicketless) overs in the first innings of the second Test. Jeff Thomson, also past his very best by this point, played just one Test. In fact, Australia’s most effective bowler was arguably Geoff Dymock (during his four-month purple patch in which he took two thirds of his total Test wickets!), and even he played only two of the three matches.

Viv was brilliant on the 79/80 tour, and there are legitimate reasons to praise his performance in the Test series, but “dominated Thommo and Hogg” ain’t it.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I wish I knew Rodney Hogg personally, so that I could tell him to log in here and get an ego boost seeing how heavily he is being overrated in this discussion.

Hogg exploded onto the scene in 78/79 and his first seven Tests (48 wickets at 13) were spectacular, but he was never remotely the same force again – his last 31 Tests yielded 75 wickets at 38. In the series in question, troubled by injury and nowhere near his best, he took just 2 wickets at 62 and his final act of the series was being taken for 59 runs off just six (wicketless) overs in the first innings of the second Test. Jeff Thomson, also past his very best by this point, played just one Test. In fact, Australia’s most effective bowler was arguably Geoff Dymock (during his four-month purple patch in which he took two thirds of his total Test wickets!), and even he played only two of the three matches.

Viv was brilliant on the 79/80 tour, and there are legitimate reasons to praise his performance in the Test series, but “dominated Thommo and Hogg” ain’t it.

The whole reason Hogg didn’t fulfill the promise of early career and was horrible in this series was because he was taken apart by Viv in the series. He developed an injury after the series and after the incident where he was taken apart from 59 runs in 6 overs. Otherwise he was routinely troubling Boycott in the Ashes previous

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Lloyd scored 202 in 3 innings (avg 67), as did Kallicharran (50) but in 5. Richards was ATG there, no doubt, top of the echelon stuff, definitely top 10 ever; but it wasn't necessarily a one man show like Lara in 2001 or Smith 2017; where the next highest scorer Renshaw averaged 29, Handscomb 28, Wade 32, Warner 24 and Marsh 18. Maxwell averaged 39, but scored less than ⅓ Smith's runs and his contribution was basically a century.

Richards scored throughout. Kalicharan and Lloyd more sporadically clearly(check the Wisden assessment Subz posted above and the scorecards of the series). Plus Lillee, Thomson, Hogg and even Dymock(as mentioned by the poster above, who was in his purple patch) presented a significant challenge.

 

[OverratedSanity]

And Richards was suffering from back problems and groin issues throughout the series

He gets extra points for being injured throughout the series. He was literally limping.

How do you ***** remember this from series 50 years ago but fail to mention Smith got concussed in the 2019 ashes