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Vaughan resigns as England captain... so does Collingwood

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
People should not be picked on 1 season. Shah not only has much longer-term performance behind him but has been more successful in Test cricket than Bopara has.

Likewise Key. The only sensible reason for Bopara over Key would be that they didn't want an opener batting three.
 

Neil Pickup

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We're going into a Test match with four batsmen, then all-rounders and allsorts players. There is something very, very sick and ill at the top of the selection hierarchy here: what is the gameplan? What is the objective? What the hell is going on? Matt Prior?

At least every single selection I make for Oxfordshire age group sides can now be explained away as less nonsensical than what Geoff Miller would have done.
 

Langeveldt

Soutie
Really amped for this next test.. Would love a 3-0 with Pietersen at the helm, and then SA can go into the suit that they are stronger at and give England a pasting in the ODI's... Bopara? Just not a test class batsman for mine..
 

Uppercut

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Really amped for this next test.. Would love a 3-0 with Pietersen at the helm, and then SA can go into the suit that they are stronger at and give England a pasting in the ODI's... Bopara? Just not a test class batsman for mine..
Think they'll give Zondeki a game in place of Ntini? I fancy they'll give everyone who came on tour but hasn't had a game a run out. None of them are as weak as Bopara, mind.
 

pup11

International Coach
Really amped for this next test.. Would love a 3-0 with Pietersen at the helm, and then SA can go into the suit that they are stronger at and give England a pasting in the ODI's... Bopara? Just not a test class batsman for mine..
I think a 3-0 pasting is on the cards for England, if South Africa don't drop their intensity levels, England camp would still take some time to settle under KP's leadership.
Btw English selection is starting to become more and more of a jokw with every passing day, Bopara is hardly a test class batsman, and what the hell is Prior doing in the Odi side, why didn't they just pick him instead of Ambrose in the fourth test.:dry:
 

Woodster

International Captain
For me the Batting line up for the Oval for England should be :

1. Cook
2. Strauss
3. Bell
4. Pietersen
5. Bopara
6. Collingwood
7. Flintoff
8. Ambrose

With the three bowlers dependant on fitness and conditions.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Think they'll give Zondeki a game in place of Ntini? I fancy they'll give everyone who came on tour but hasn't had a game a run out. None of them are as weak as Bopara, mind.
Peterson for Harris (hardly weakens the bowling if as expected The Oval doesn't turn and strengthens the batting), Zondeki for Ntini, Duminy for Prince?
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Btw English selection is starting to become more and more of a jokw with every passing day, Bopara is hardly a test class batsman, and what the hell is Prior doing in the Odi side, why didn't they just pick him instead of Ambrose in the fourth test.:dry:
Armchair know-all critics are starting to get on my nerves.

The fact is that the selectors watch, hear and know a lot more about the form and ability of players in domestic cricket than most of the posters on this messageboard. You may be an exception, of course, but I'm in no position to make that kind of bold assumption.
 

Smith108

Cricket Spectator
For me the Batting line up for the Oval for England should be :

1. Cook
2. Strauss
3. Bell
4. Pietersen
5. Bopara
6. Collingwood
7. Flintoff
8. Ambrose

With the three bowlers dependant on fitness and conditions.
I would have liked them to throw a few more names into the hat for the last test, possibly Key, Shah or maybe even the likes of Graeme Swann or Simon Jones. By just bringing in Bopara the selectors appear to be unwilling to take a risk or two. Although I guess that is a very strong batting line up.
 

Burgey

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Shame for Vaughan and for England that it's come to this. He's been a fine player and a very fine captain for them over a number of years.

Really, really hoping Pietersen holes out in the deep playing an outlandish reverse-sweep in his first couple of digs as skipper :ph34r:

Not sure how the captaincy will sit with him, but then how can anyone know until he's given a crack at it?
 

Langeveldt

Soutie
Think they'll give Zondeki a game in place of Ntini? I fancy they'll give everyone who came on tour but hasn't had a game a run out. None of them are as weak as Bopara, mind.
Inclined to say no.. Think we need Ntini continuing his form.. He's a bowler who needs to bowl regularly
 

Neil Pickup

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For me the Batting line up for the Oval for England should be :

1. Cook
2. Strauss
3. Bell
4. Pietersen
5. Bopara
6. Collingwood
7. Flintoff
8. Ambrose

With the three bowlers dependant on fitness and conditions.
I would have liked them to throw a few more names into the hat for the last test, possibly Key, Shah or maybe even the likes of Graeme Swann or Simon Jones. By just bringing in Bopara the selectors appear to be unwilling to take a risk or two. Although I guess that is a very strong batting line up.
How is it a very strong batting line-up? We lost the last two Tests by virtue of lacking first-innings runs, and you could argue that this lineup is as weak as either. Strauss has got out the same way all summer around the wicket, Cook has looked in good nick but not made it count, Bell still fills me with as much confidence as the site of a caravan trying to overtake a lorry, Collingwood's place was on the line days ago, Bopara has a worse Test record with the bat than Dean Headley, Flintoff can barely buy a bloody run anywhere and Ambrose just looks like getting out every time he tries a cover drive.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Armchair know-all critics are starting to get on my nerves.

The fact is that the selectors watch, hear and know a lot more about the form and ability of players in domestic cricket than most of the posters on this messageboard. You may be an exception, of course, but I'm in no position to make that kind of bold assumption.
I think I can safely say that I watch no domestic cricket, largely because I have very little opportunity to do so. Not sure if you have had the chance to watch Bopara this season or not, but it would be interesting to hear how many changes hes made since his last test stint. One has to remember that he also plays in Division 2 (albeit so does Shah), so its hardly a playground for the big boys either.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Was simply referring to the coincidence of it being Smith who inflicted the final blow on both occasions. I don't think he did anything more than that in either case. With both Hussain and Vaughan, it was coming anyway. It always is. No captain is going to resign because of 1 bad game. It was the same with Atherton before them as well - even if England had drawn that ARG Test in 1998 which they so damn well should have done but for that stupid run-out, Atherton was still going to give-up the captaincy.

It's just a shame that all three ended on a low when it could have been that bit better. By nature, though, standing down from a job you have done for a long time and will inevitably have come to love doing is never going to be a tea-party.
Personally, Im not sure if Vaughan would have dropped the captaincy had England won the game at Edgbaston but then again you never know. It was definetly a decision that would have happened down the line but I do think that Smith had far more of an impact in Vaughan's decision than in Hussain's (which IMO was practically 0%).
 

Burgey

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How is it a very strong batting line-up? We lost the last two Tests by virtue of lacking first-innings runs, and you could argue that this lineup is as weak as either. Strauss has got out the same way all summer around the wicket, Cook has looked in good nick but not made it count, Bell still fills me with as much confidence as the site of a caravan trying to overtake a lorry, Collingwood's place was on the line days ago, Bopara has a worse Test record with the bat than Dean Headley, Flintoff can barely buy a bloody run anywhere and Ambrose just looks like getting out every time he tries a cover drive.
Quick - bring forward the Ashes!!!

England has to pick and stick. Pick some youngish guys who've shown some decent potential, blood them and give them time to find their way. I can understand the frustration at the apparent selectorial inertia, but if the alternative is a raft of changes made in heady times following a defeat, wont you end up with the late-80s/ early 90s phenomenon where the caps seemed to be handed out to anyone and everyone?
Before the second test, threads were posted about whether Flintoff should even have been picked!!!
If that situation had applied to McGrath (who was our best bowler) and Australia, there wouldn't even have been a discussion - he's the best bowler - if he's declared fit, whether he's played once in 12 months, or thirty times in 12 months he gets picked, because he's head and shoulders above your other options. As Flintoff was over others. Why there was even a discussion about it is beyond me.
Likewise Hoggard. Now I don't get to see or read about his FC efforts this summer because I'm on the other side of the world. But if I'm barracking for SA this English summer, I'm a damn sight happier he's not there and a bloke like Broad or Anderson is. Why? Because whether he's bowling crap for his county or not, the bloke's done it at test level for a few years now and done it well. He's a proven test bowler. He's done it when it swings, he's done it when it hasn't. He's done it when it's cool and overcast, he's done it when it's hot and sunny. He's done it when it's seaming around and he's done it when it's flat as a tack, like in Adelaide.
It's all right for the selectors to opine "he's lost a yard of pace", but as far as I know he hasn't lost the respect of test batsmen, which in my mind counts for a hell of a lot more. If he got pongoed in a couple or more tests, fair enough, but surely he'd earned the right to lose his spot at the highest level.
Cook, Strauss, Bell, Pietersen are hardly old. There's a future there. I still have qualms re. Cook's technique on off stump, but he's making a go of it, while Strauss has come back after a horror run - itself a sign of mental strength. Bell looks like he'll cry every time a ball beats his bat, but he's a better player now than he was 2-3 years ago. Pietersen is a class act.
There's a nucleus there for a decent batting line up. You need someone to come in for Vaughan (assuming he's not back). If it's a decision between some bloke who's 30-odd and averages 3 runs per innings more than a bloke who's 25, FFS pick the young bloke and stick with him for a decent period!!! The selectors have to trust their judgment - if they're not prepared to take a punt based on their looking at players at FC level, they ought not be in the job.
When Australia were complete and utter ****e in the 80s (much, much worse than England are now), the selectors gave young blokes who weren't ready a go. And they did it knowing they weren't ready, but they picked the most combative guys they could who had the right mental approach, and who would grow into it - that's why blokes like Boon, S Waugh, Healy and G Marsh beacme the nucleus of a very good side - not because they immediately adjusted, but because they were given time to grow into it and to prosper.
Sure, they were talented players, but don't tell me there aren't a crop of some suitably talented fellas with the right attitudes around in county cricket. If there isn't such a crop, what the hell has the ECB been doing for the past decade or so?
 

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