*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

[thundaboult]

Oh yeah he's definitely going to stick around for the odi stuff. He rediscovered a bit of his old-self and played magnificently vs india in ODI 2 and 3. Especially taking bummers to the cleaners was a highlight. He's in the ross taylor boat....can't go from ball 1 in t20's anymore so odi's might just be his thing where he can afford to bat like himself, take time and get in. Lowkey though I always kinda thought he was going to become a pinch hitter like late mccullum hahaha. But yeah to ol' point again, the t20 road seems to be closing for him...and it honestly kind of breaks my heart. One of my favorite all time openers. Such a joy to watch when he hits massive sixes with minimal effort. Also a man who possesses the greatest looking straight six over the bowlers head IMO. What a sight.

 

[thierry henry]

munro was a lead weight on nzs odi wc campaign. it was less 'he's ill suited to this role in this format' and a lot more 'couldn't buy a run in any format right now' so he was hucked.

I mean, you must know this is a total non-sequitur, but you've made variations on this "ignore the numbers, Munro is bad now" post for a couple of years now so you're obviously committed to it.

Yes, Munro stunk in ODI cricket (not just at the World Cup but throughout his "career"). However, in order to see whether he could "buy a run in any format right now" you can literally just look at the actual T20s that he actually played, where he continued to score runs just like he always has.

 

[nzfan]

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

Vote of confidence for Guppy and I reckon its fair enough. As much as I'd like to see Allen selected I can understand this with giving Guptill a longer rope. He deserves it as he's earned it over the years. He's definitely a high quality batsman. Maybe post t20 WC this year they will start looking at Allen. If Guptill doesn't go well against the Aussies and if he's still persisted then I'd definitely be disappointed.

As for Munro and Milne in the mix again.... I don't know what to say and my doubt about Stead/Larsen/Kane mix is correct. They will continue to go for older heads. I'm not saying if that is right or not but I think the direction NZC is taking may not be great for future. Ignoring super smash stats but upholding big bash performances. Then what good is super smash for if they can't pick from super smash? This may set a trend for future which disappoints me.

 

[nzfan]

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

This is a bizarre one... not the kind of regular stuff that goes around but this incident is very bizarre and kind of out of the ordinary racial stuff. I know the player but not going to mention it for obvious reason but it's not as straight forward as it sounds. In this case I'm not so sure if this is the correct decision to suspend player for the full season.

 

[Bahnz]

As for Munro and Milne in the mix again.... I don't know what to say and my doubt about Stead/Larsen/Kane mix is correct. They will continue to go for older heads. I'm not saying if that is right or not but I think the direction NZC is taking may not be great for future. Ignoring super smash stats but upholding big bash performances. Then what good is super smash for if they can't pick from super smash? This may set a trend for future which disappoints me.

Milne's been around for yonks, but he's still only 28 - what really should be a fast bowler's prime.

 

[nzfan]

Milne's been around for yonks, but he's still only 28 - what really should be a fast bowler's prime.

That's fair... I'm getting a bit clouded by Sears' performances I guess. Milne is definitely a quality bowler. If fit and firing he's got to be playing no doubt.

 

[James]

Stead/Larsen/Kane

Look forward to this being Fleming/Bond/Kane

 

[Immenso]

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

Vote of confidence for Guppy and I reckon its fair enough. As much as I'd like to see Allen selected I can understand this with giving Guptill a longer rope. He deserves it as he's earned it over the years. He's definitely a high quality batsman. Maybe post t20 WC this year they will start looking at Allen. If Guptill doesn't go well against the Aussies and if he's still persisted then I'd definitely be disappointed.

As for Munro and Milne in the mix again.... I don't know what to say and my doubt about Stead/Larsen/Kane mix is correct. They will continue to go for older heads. I'm not saying if that is right or not but I think the direction NZC is taking may not be great for future. Ignoring super smash stats but upholding big bash performances. Then what good is super smash for if they can't pick from super smash? This may set a trend for future which disappoints me.

I'm firmly in the camp of don't promote kids until they've earned it.

But I think Allen and Sears have done enough, this season, and based on obvious talent and potential, to be promoted. This format only.

I also think Stead "should back Guptill to come back into form". So, I'm saying pick them both in the squad. But Guptill should not get all 5 starts unchallenged.
I'm saying pick Sears in the squad also. The 2 youngsters should aim to get 2 games each v Australia and 2 v Bangladesh.

I haven't done the numbers in my head yet in how to fit them all in the squad.

Already we have Phillips rewarded for his T20I century by being relegated from 4 to 5 on Kane's return, so it may be tough to fit Allen in.

But Sears should be gliding past Tickner, Bennett, Bracewell. Ferguson injured. So 5 seamers in a T20 squad Boult, Southee, Jamieson, Milne, Sears.

let me make a 15 man squad ....

Guptill
Seiffert
Williamson
Conway
Phillips
Allen / Munro
---------
Neesham
de Grandhomme
---------
Santner
Sodhi
----------
Southee
Boult
Jamieson
Milne
Sears

They both could fit it in easily. Maybe they will want a 3rd spinner to replicate a likely squad balance for India T20 WC. -At expense of the last of the 5 quicks (Sears or Milne). Maybe they want 1 experienced opener (Guptill or Munro) and 1 youngster (seiffert).

If playing for realsies, e.g WC time. I'd back Munro over Allen to be flexible enough to bat opener or 5, assuming he is last pick batsman.

Ferguson to come back in if (please) fit, by September/October.

There is a whole entire off-season before the T20WC, so form will change by then anyway

 

[nzfan]

You can't have 15 member squad. It's going to be 13 member squad. I'm guessing they'll only announce the squad for the first three, see how it goes and then the squad for the last two. Going by the selections recently they will continue to pick two different squads for each of the t20 series. I'm all for it if it but there are issues with such approach. They selected Duffy to play one game where he did exceedingly well but since then he has been smashed around in super smash. Ideally he should have carried on playing for BCs going by that game. Now will you give him a go again or bin him now that he's no more in form? Sears or Duffy? Honour the super smash consistent performances or Duffy's outstanding spell in the only international t20 he's played where he didn't do all that wrong?

Would you honour super smash form or big bash form considering we're playing at home?

IMO forget Allen and Sears for now, go with the best combination to win the game for the first three T20s. Don't announce the squad for the last two yet and do it closer to the date. If we have won enough by the 3rd t20 experiment a bit in the last two otherwise go with a team that can produce the best result. Come Bangladesh t20s provide opportunities to Sears and Allen. Hope by then Sears and Allen are still in good touch.

 

[Immenso]

From stats POV. NZ openers in T20Is over last 2 years.

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs ​	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100​	50​
C Munro	2019-2020	17	17	0	447	72	26.29	310	144.19	0	3
TL Seifert	2019-2020	11	10	1	373	84*	41.44	254	146.85	0	3
MJ Guptill	2019-2020	18	17	0	350	50	20.58	238	147.05	0	1

Batting records | Twenty20 Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Guptill and Munro splits pre and post 2019:

Guptill	Matches:	Runs	Ave:	SR:
Before 2019:	85​	2271​	34.41​	132.88​
Since 2019:	19​	350​	20.58​	147.05​

Batting records | Twenty20 Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Munro	Matches:	Runs	Ave:	SR:
Before 2019:	48​	1277​	33.61​	161.24​
Since 2019:	17​	447​	26.29​	144.19​

Batting records | Twenty20 Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

 

[Immenso]

Looking at T20 world cup in India.

I looked up NZ's T20 stats in India for last 5 years. Lol, we haven't played a T20I there for the last 4 years.
(Probably half these numbers would be from the T20WC in 2016 rather than any bilateral v India)

Batting records | Twenty20 Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

So, looking at IPL batting records of (batting an allrounder) contenders:
(cricket archive now separate stats for the T20 leagues)

IPL records:	Span:	Matches	Runs	Ave	SR:
Guptill	-	-	-	-	-
Munro	2016-2019	13	177	14.75	125.53
Seiffert	-	-	-	-	-
Allen	-	-	-	-	-
Williamson	2015-2020	53	1619	39.48	134.80
Phillips	-	-		-	-
Conway	-	-	-	-	-
Taylor	2007-2014	55	1017	25.42	123.72
de Grandhomme	2017-2019	25	303	18.93	134.66
Neesham	2014-2020	9	61	12.20	95.31
Mitchell	-	-	-	-	-

It's pretty grim outside Williamson. Taylor is only an outside chance, but his record is way better in context to other NZers, but how do you place value on stats now almost 7 years old ?

 

[straw man]

But Sears should be gliding past Tickner, Bennett, Bracewell. Ferguson injured. So 5 seamers in a T20 squad Boult, Southee, Jamieson, Milne, Sears.

Yes happy to back this under the 'don't rush Sears and co but give them a few rando T20Is' policy. He's definitely worth a run over Tickner and Bennett who have both disappointed in their T20I outings, and over Kuggeleijn too.

On Bracewell, I poured cold water on Ian Smith's cheerleading saying that he should've gone to the last ODI World Cup, and he shouldn't play another test match. But I'm not totally against giving him another run in ODIs/T20Is now he's having success with lower order batting/biffing - we are seemingly always short of good lower order hitters so could compete against CDG, Neesham, Mitchell etc. Bowling needs to be passable - on slower pitches he does alright with cutters, will struggle on roads but so do all but the best.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yes happy to back this under the 'don't rush Sears and co but give them a few rando T20Is' policy. He's definitely worth a run over Tickner and Bennett who have both disappointed in their T20I outings, and over Kuggeleijn too.

On Bracewell, I poured cold water on Ian Smith's cheerleading saying that he should've gone to the last ODI World Cup, and he shouldn't play another test match. But I'm not totally against giving him another run in ODIs/T20Is now he's having success with lower order batting/biffing - we are seemingly always short of good lower order hitters so could compete against CDG, Neesham, Mitchell etc. Bowling needs to be passable - on slower pitches he does alright with cutters, will struggle on roads but so do all but the best.

Dougeh's record with the bat alone in both domestic T20s and the shots he got at T20Is have always revealed a sneaky gun T20 bat, so I watched him closely in the Super Smash this season and he delivered on that. I'd have really liked to see him bat higher than he did, but it is what it is.

As long as he's viewed as a batting allrounder to come in around 7 rather than a frontliner bowler, I'm all for his inclusion. There's really not much evidence to suggest he's worse with the bat in this format than Lord Colin or JimmyGS -- unfortunately there's equally scarce evidence to suggest he's better with the ball.

 

[Immenso]

IPL records of the bowling and allrounder contenders.

Way more Indian experience (and a tad more success) in the bowlers than the batsmen.

Seamers		Matches:	Wickets	Ave:	ER
Boult	2015-2021	48​	63​	25.03​	8.53​
Southee	2011-2019	40​	28​	46.17​	8.73​
Ferguson	2017-2020	14​	11​	38.54​	8.50​
Jamieson	-	-	-	-	-
Milne	2016-17	5​	4​	44.25​	9.83​
Sears	-	-	-	-	-
Bracewell	2012	1​	3​	10.66​	8.00​

Spinners		Matches:	Wickets	Ave:	ER
Santner	2019-2020	6​	6​	24.50​	7.00​
Sodhi	2018-2019	8​	9​	22.44​	6.69​

All Rounders		Matches:	Wickets	Ave:	ER
De Grandhomme	2017-2019	25​	9​	53.16​	8.86​
Neesham	2014-2020	9	3​	79.66​	9.95​
Mitchell	-	-	-	-	-

 

[James]

Kane injured:

 

[Immenso]

^^ I didn't include McClenaghan in above, but he has by far the second best NZ seamers record in IPL after Boult.

		Matches:	Wickets	Ave:	ER
McClenaghan	2015-2019	56​	71​	25.39​	8.49​

 

[Flem274*]

Dougeh's record with the bat alone in both domestic T20s and the shots he got at T20Is have always revealed a sneaky gun T20 bat, so I watched him closely in the Super Smash this season and he delivered on that. I'd have really liked to see him bat higher than he did, but it is what it is.

As long as he's viewed as a batting allrounder to come in around 7 rather than a frontliner bowler, I'm all for his inclusion. There's really not much evidence to suggest he's worse with the bat in this format than Lord Colin or JimmyGS -- unfortunately there's equally scarce evidence to suggest he's better with the ball.

dougs been gun with the ball this season tbh. cd mvp

 

[Chewie]

I see the Bangladesh games have been delayed by a week or so to give them some training time before the first game

Schedule change for Bangladesh Men and Australia Women (nzc.nz)

 

[straw man]

Dougeh's record with the bat alone in both domestic T20s and the shots he got at T20Is have always revealed a sneaky gun T20 bat, so I watched him closely in the Super Smash this season and he delivered on that. I'd have really liked to see him bat higher than he did, but it is what it is.

As long as he's viewed as a batting allrounder to come in around 7 rather than a frontliner bowler, I'm all for his inclusion. There's really not much evidence to suggest he's worse with the bat in this format than Lord Colin or JimmyGS -- unfortunately there's equally scarce evidence to suggest he's better with the ball.

Yeah pretty much. It's a weird role - 6 or 7 in T20s - too. Usually anyone that bats there for their national side probably does bat further up the order for their domestic team, which might also mean they don't develop the same skills. Hit from ball one, usually. But sometimes construct a longer innings. You probably don't end up with a good batting average, even if you play some important little knocks. Some teams even cover all their bowling and wicket-keeping between their selection of 4 bowlers and top 5 batting, leaving 6 and 7 as true afterthoughts.

Bracewell happy to hit from the start, can sometimes play a larger innings, and bowling is ok, so no problem with him being in the picture. I don't mind that he bats 6 or 7 for CD if that's where he might play for NZ.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

Munro is still the number 8 ranked t20 international batsman ... so I'm baffled as to how he's not seen as the incumbent, and Guptill is, and is given endless chances.

Will be interesting to see how Munro goes tonight.