*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

[nzfan]

Just came across this article which I think sums it up quite well: https://www.odt.co.nz/sport/cricket/domestic-game-foundation-black-caps-built-success

Add to that some of our lesser lights play in overseas leagues and usually do very well ... most of our players seem to perform better in the CPL than they do in the Super Smash.

I just find it very annoying the comparison and dragging down of our comp compared to Australia's. It reminds me of something Shane Bond said in his book, the general narrative in his time was that NZ were battlers who overachieve, but his view was we have some of the most talented cricketers on the planet, and we often give ourselves an easy way out by playing into that battler/overachievement tag. I don't think you could say that's really the case now, apart from this mentality that Australia is the ultimate in cricket and we are lucky to be playing them, need a side in the big bash, etc. It seems to me to be something that is still ingrained in us even at the highest level.

Well in my opinion our league is just as good, if not better. Who cares about overseas players coming in, I'd rather develop our own players and give them the chance to step up. And I'd sure as hell rather watch a game in the sun at one of our grounds half full than a 70-90.000 seater in Aus that has half the crowd rattling around in it in the middle of night.

And current Test and ODI rankings indicate what we are doing is working pretty damn well for us, better than Australia.

Sorry anyway, rant over.

Same... you never stop hearing about comparisons with big bash. Comes from the feel that anything aussie is great from the past generations handed over. Generally our players like you have pointed out do quite well in overseas leagues. Our domestic cricket structure can't be all that bad particularly in the recent years with high performance unit developing the players in the background. We put aussie cricket on such a pedestal we hired John Buchanan a decade ago to head NZ Cricket as a director. That didn't go very well obviously. I'm not so sure if Australia will pick players if they were playing in super smash and doing well. Not that their players would want to come in for a 15k contract Their domestic cricketers make that from a bat endorsement probably.

 

[nzfan]

bonds book had so many good points. wish he'd be nz head coach.

One of the stand out from his book I remember is how he was always used into the wind for many years despite being the quickest around. I'm sure he mentioned you have to stand up for yourself and ask for it if you need to succeed in NZ. A bit of selfishness is definitely required I guess.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

Same... you never stop hearing about comparisons with big bash. Comes from the feel that anything aussie is great from the past generations handed over. Generally our players like you have pointed out do quite well in overseas leagues. Our domestic cricket structure can't be all that bad particularly in the recent years with high performance unit developing the players in the background. We put aussie cricket on such a pedestal we hired John Buchanan a decade ago to head NZ Cricket as a director. That didn't go very well obviously. I'm not so sure if Australia will pick players if they were playing in super smash and doing well. Not that their players would want to come in for a 15k contract Their domestic cricketers make that from a bat endorsement probably.

Perfect example, the other day I saw a few comments on a stuff article saying how Buchanan cleared out the deadwood at NZC and turned the whole organisation around! Unbelievable take!!!

And the frustration for me is also with plenty of people I know, big cricket fans, who will watch heaps of big bash games on tv but swerve the super smash. I get they have all the 10/10 hype in Aus, but I wish we’d give ourselves a bit more credit. Maybe the perception is slowly starting to change.

 

[nzfan]

Perfect example, the other day I saw a few comments on a stuff article saying how Buchanan cleared out the deadwood at NZC and turned the whole organisation around! Unbelievable take!!!

And the frustration for me is also with plenty of people I know, big cricket fans, who will watch heaps of big bash games on tv but swerve the super smash. I get they have all the 10/10 hype in Aus, but I wish we’d give ourselves a bit more credit. Maybe the perception is slowly starting to change.

Buchanan appointment was shambolic to say the least. The two coaches John Wright first and Hessen next were not in taking terms. He did support Taylor but that clashed with team management. The communications were pretty much absent from what I've heard and NZC had to let him go prior completion of his contract. In fact they had to pay in full for the remainder of his contract to make good. Those were the most turbulent times in NZ cricket.

Yeah the big bash is well watched. I don't. What happened to the promised disclosure from spark about viewership? That'll tell us where we're at with super smash.

 

[Moss]

One of the stand out from his book I remember is how he was always used into the wind for many years despite being the quickest around. I'm sure he mentioned you have to stand up for yourself and ask for it if you need to succeed in NZ. A bit of selfishness is definitely required I guess.

Is this the book?

Shane Bond - Looking Back eBook: Cleaver, Dylan: Amazon.in: Books

Shane Bond - Looking Back eBook: Cleaver, Dylan: Amazon.in: Books

www.amazon.in

 

[nzfan]

Is this the book?

Shane Bond - Looking Back eBook: Cleaver, Dylan: Amazon.in: Books

Shane Bond - Looking Back eBook: Cleaver, Dylan: Amazon.in: Books

www.amazon.in

Looks like it...I must have it lying in the garage somewhere. Looks like published in 2010. That's the one I guess.

I've dug up two books from the garage and reading at the moment. "Hadlee hits out" and "Tortured genius". Boy Sir Richard hated the Aussie crowd or what. A book like Hadlee hits out in this age will mean the player will lose national contract. Was gifted for birthday when I was a kid and has Richard Hadlee's signature on it. Most treasured book ever.

 

[nzfan]

Highly recommend Mark Richardson's book as well if you haven't read it. It's a massive laugh but very informative as well. The style of writing keeps you hooked with lots of funny stories. Particularly the chapter in detail of senior Cairns trying his best to get Richardson's bowling going but eventually giving up saying **** it kid you have no chance. This after few seasons at first class. He suggested Richardson might as well try a hand at batting and Richardson took his advise to heart, ended up an opener. That is one amazing but a very funny story.

Another was when he was picked to play for NZ A vs touring England side. His grand parents attended the game traveling from Auckland for the first couple of days or three and eventually decided not to go given how bad Richardson was bowling. He bowled off the pitch, head high full tosses and English cricketers were just laughing their head off wondering how someone like him ended up playing at this level.

Richardson made his debut under Jeff Crowe for Auckland and that one chapter will have people in splits... terrific terrific read. You could almost say he was bullied and these days it won't fly but then it was a norm.

This one...

 

[Immenso]

I think I remember Richardson's game v England tourists. (just from radio and newspaper). Was a Presidents XI or some such at Pukekura Park.

Full round of Shell Trophy going on at same time so made up of youngsters or good provincial 2nd XI players. No one pulled out of the Provincial first XIs.

Possibly even Richardson's FC debut.

 

[Immenso]

No. Looked it up.

He made his FC debut in a match similar to what I described 2 years earlier v touring Indians
2 years later, game you are mentioning was NZ Emerging Players v England, so a proper selection of promising talent.

https://archive.nzc.nz/Players/9/9621/First-Class_Matches.html

15 overs, 0 for 88 - in game v England.

https://archive.nzc.nz/Scorecards/55/55296.html

Edit to make it worse for him. Dismissed by his opposite number Tufnell in both innings, and Tufnell looked like he had the Emerging Players tied up in knots in both innings.

But for some context. Tufnell was incredibly good on that tour,

 

[nzfan]

Didn't realize it was this far back... That's ages ago. Never really looked up the scorecard but remember vividly from the book. Not every day someone writes how bad they were in their book for a starter. His grand parents not turning up after couple of days of watching cricket is hilarious. I thought he mentioned Naseer Hussain consoled him but I could be wrong.

We had New Zealand U-Bix XI

 

[Immenso]

The U-Bix XI was a Hawke Cup XI. Hawke Cup was called U-Bix Cup at the time under sponsorship.


For the kids reading ..... U-Bix was a photocopy machine manufacturer ....

 

[thierry henry]

No. Looked it up.

He made his FC debut in a match similar to what I described 2 years earlier v touring Indians
2 years later, game you are mentioning was NZ Emerging Players v England, so a proper selection of promising talent.

https://archive.nzc.nz/Players/9/9621/First-Class_Matches.html

15 overs, 0 for 88 - in game v England.

https://archive.nzc.nz/Scorecards/55/55296.html

Edit to make it worse for him. Dismissed by his opposite number Tufnell in both innings, and Tufnell looked like he had the Emerging Players tied up in knots in both innings.

But for some context. Tufnell was incredibly good on that tour,

18 year old Richardson dismissed 16 year old Tendulkar on FC debut

 

[Immenso]

18 year old Richardson dismissed 16 year old Tendulkar on FC debut

Look like it was his maiden FC wicket, as a guess, but scorecard doesn't show names in FoWs, so just an estimate.

---
Correcting part of my earlier post:
My recollection of that game is slightly off. That is a genuine looking NZ'A' team of the time. Not that they used the term 'A' back then.

https://archive.nzc.nz/Scorecards/52/52336.html

Only Richardson is a bolter. Also Parore a bit. that was only his second FC game of his career and first of the season (Ian Smith playing for Auckland blocking Parore from FC cricket), but Parore toured England with the NZ team as second keeper later that year.

The season before (v Pakistan) was when they selected a team made up of players from the 2nd XI competition. And confusingly called the team New Zealand 2nd XI. But were in effect NZ's 7th XI.

 

[Immenso]

I've not really read many cricket or sporting bigraphies. Usually it irrationally infuriates me that they write them a year or 2 before retirement.

But, recently read 3 in a row after picking some up at 2nd hand sales.

Read Ken Rutherford's 'Hell of a way to make a living' and then immediately afterwards read Glenn Turner's "Lifting the Covers' which covered his stint as coach in the 1990s.

Rutherford's book is full of grievances with Turner.
- his coaching of his older brother Ian, turning him from shot-filled dasher to a dour stodger.
- his treatment of him as young player in his first stint as coach
- his dropping him from team and as captain as first thing he did in 2nd stint as coach

Turner's book barely mentions Rutherford:
- about one paragraph, using stats from last x years, to explain why Rutherford wasn't worth place in team.

You'd think dropping the encumbent captain entirely from team and inserting a 'specialist captain' should cover a lot of a book. Leaving this out would make it so much less interesting. But 'luckily'; the antics of Cairns, Parore, M Crowe, Morrison, Twose, Greatbatch, Doig and Turner himself made it still an extremely interesting read .......

 

[jcas0167]

Didn't realize it was this far back... That's ages ago. Never really looked up the scorecard but remember vividly from the book. Not every day someone writes how bad they were in their book for a starter. His grand parents not turning up after couple of days of watching cricket is hilarious. I thought he mentioned Naseer Hussain consoled him but I could be wrong.

We had New Zealand U-Bix XI

I was just re-reading Richardson's book recently. It's highly recommended because he is so candid about everything, particularly his shortcomings as a bowler (he got the 'yips') and then his efforts to salvage his career as a batsman. Brian Lara comes across as a dickhead.

I think they got the English coach, Mickey Stewart, to try to console Richardson after that game where his bowling went to pieces. It's interesting to see how the old school critical approach of Jeff Crowe was disastrous for a budding spinner.

I also thought it was interesting Greg Chappell offered to help the NZ batsmen on the 2004 tour to Australia but Bracewell just dismissed the idea out of hand.

The book provides a lot of material for the mental side of the game with Richardson's sports psychologist contributing to part of the book.

 

[Immenso]

A snippet from Rutherford's book has stuck in my mind.

During the ill-fated South Africa tour of 1994/95 which he captained. He writes that during the One-Dayer tri series part of the tour that one of his pace bowlers, whom he doesn't name but describes as being from Northern Districts, came to him and admitted he was unsure how to bowl in 50 over cricket even at Sell Cup level, let alone ODI level, and lacked confidence. Ken was flabberghasted.

It is either Richard de Groen or Simon Doull.

Seeing as de Groen was really a limited overs bowler ideally suited to the conditions and tactics of the time, and Doull was floaty swing bowler who struggled in that format. I think we can assume it was Doull.

It striked me as I actually like Doull commentating during T20s as he describes the field sets and explains really well therefore where the bowler is going to bowl (particularly if bowler is committing himself to bowl either short or full, and can't rely on uncertainty of length). Basically he is the best commentator around that I have heard on the thinking and planning behind white ball bowling strategies. But in his playing days I don't think the head was so clear.

TBH. In those days a 16 man tour party had to cover both formats and it wasn't surprising to have a player in limited overs out of his depth. Hell, Heath Davis even played Sharjah ODIs in his 1994 wild man version - as he was part of the NZ squad on way to England really just there to play county games and get experience. etc etc. I guess the flabberghasting was that un-named ND bowler admitted he even lacked confidence at Shell Cup level.

 

[Flem274*]

reading the old books makes you realise what a ****ing joke nz cricket coaching and admin was here back then even though we were in the 'professional' era. even in the fleming era they were just throwing stuff at the wall with that motivational bloke bracewell brought in who wanted to drop half the team and the academy churning out constantly injured fast bowlers.

in good times we succeeded in spite of the best efforts of our behind the scenes staff.

the one thing they did do right towards the end of that era was flatten the pitches and disband the academy. the decentralisation of high performance coaching in nz has made players think about their game for themselves from an early age and (vitally) the best coaches are spread around the country, available for players to seek them out one on one.

imagine an era where trent boult, tim southee, matt henry, kyle jamieson and lockie ferguson all attended the academy lol.

 

[Bahnz]

Haha, I've read snippets from "Hell of a Way to make a living", and boy Ken isn't a big fan of Crowe is he? Spends quite a bit of time ranting about how Crowe was a chardonnay-sipping elitist while Ken was a beer-drinking man of the people. Gives you a good sense of how disfunctional NZ were in the dark days of the mid-90's before Rixon and co started turning things around.

I also remember Turner being very sniffy about Rixon as a coach, saying he was too willing to let the players off the leash on tour and that they'd never meet their potential without Turner's brand of discipline. Given the results we got from Cairns and co during the 97-02 period, it reallly does make Turner look clueless.

Looking forwards, Taylor's biography will be probably the best of the coming generation. He's the one player who's really spanned NZ's decline post the 07 World Cup, their rise under Baz/Hesson and their apotheosis under Kane. Would also love to see a biography from Wagner, but I think the only other major biographies to be published will be Kane and maybe Boult/Southee.

 

[Immenso]

TBF, Crowe was a bit a "sh!t bloke" back then.

Rutherford was not the only one.

He even fell out with his brother.

I think we can make a list of people who retired rather than play under Martin Crowe's captaincy as:
Immediately:
- Jeff Crowe
- Martin Sneddon
- John Bracewell

Eventually (as per Ken's book):
- Trevor Franklin
- Willie Watson

Others he fell out with and eventually excluded from teams he captained (I think):
- Mark Priest
- Chris Pringle

I am actually keen to read Martin Crowe's "Raw".

 

[Immenso]

reading the old books makes you realise what a ****ing joke nz cricket coaching and admin was here back then even though we were in the 'professional' era. even in the fleming era they were just throwing stuff at the wall with that motivational bloke bracewell brought in who wanted to drop half the team and the academy churning out constantly injured fast bowlers.

in good times we succeeded in spite of the best efforts of our behind the scenes staff.

the one thing they did do right towards the end of that era was flatten the pitches and disband the academy. the decentralisation of high performance coaching in nz has made players think about their game for themselves from an early age and (vitally) the best coaches are spread around the country, available for players to seek them out one on one.

imagine an era where trent boult, tim southee, matt henry, kyle jamieson and lockie ferguson all attended the academy lol.

I don't really know how the academy works anymore. Not the live-in set up it once was. But to be fair, Jamieson specifically moved to Christchurch becasue of Dayle Hadlee and the academy. So they still do something. Just, hopefully, learnt plenty of lessons about bio-mechanics and concrete pitches from the Charlesworth days.