**.....UNOFFICIAL.....** ASHES 2007 thread

[aussie]

i dont see how they are similar. freddie if it isnt glaringly obvious already is no longer that 'bang it in' bowler and has recently developed the art of swing. and anyone who thinks that Plunkett can achieve any sort of success by being a 'hit the deck bowler' and bowling at 83-85mph, needs their head examined IMO.

thats not what i mean. Yes Freddie has developed the art of swing & ptiches the ball up a lot moore but naturally he is a hit the deck bowler just like Plunks & Harmy.

I never said or reffered the thought that i though Plunks could be a success just being a `hit the deck bowler` obviously he will need to develop in the area..

 

[aussie]

i struggle too name too many bowlers who had worse series figures than him. he had one good game, which was more likely to be a fluke than anything else. and i dont know how he bowled well in the lahore test when he went at 4.45 runs an over and was one of the more expensive bowlers in the england side.
were it not for his batting, i can give you a money back guarantee that he would have been dropped at the end of the ODI series.



considering that davies plays for the same team and averages nearly half of what he does, id say that is pretty bad. the conditions on his home ground are supposed to be seamer friendly, an average of over 32 is poor regardless but when looked at it in context with the other bowlers in the same side its even worse

1. Firstly did you actually see him bowl on his debut?, because if you saw him i dont think you would be so harsh on him.., also i dont think he was selected for the OD series just because he showed some ability with the bat, i pretty sure it was because of the potential the management saw after the Lahore test. After the team came back home a lot of people where saying he was the biggest plus to come out of the tour..

2. I am not too up to date with those 1st class stats, but has is the case down in Australia with Johnson he was picked on potential & he definately showed it..

 

[marc71178]

So yea he may still have to work of this aspect because for Australia's sake Lee cannot afford to make that mistake in the ashes..

The only way he can work on it is if the opposition oblige by going after him.

 

[Richard]

what do mean their is no such thing has a hit the deck bowler, i have heard bowlers like Harmison, Dizzy, Plunks, Freddie, Oram etc referred to by commentators has that?

Obviously Plunks & Harmy aren't better bowlers that freddie but they are similar in the way they bowl..

And it's no coincidence that all are either extremely moderate bowlers or are grossly incorrectly referred to.
Gillespie, for instance, could not be less of a "hit the deck" idea (note - idea - not actuality), he's one of the more typical pitch-it-up bowlers you'll see.
Oram, Harmison and Plunkett, and Flintoff formerly, are all very poor at the Test level.

 

[Richard]

well i dunno about Watson after the SA series i'll make a better assesment on where his bowling is & what kind of bowler he can become at the highest level.

One thing I'll tell you now is that Watson is unlikely to be that accurate ever. He might be able to learn to take wickets, but I can't ever see him being very accurate.

No one is debating if MacGill, but the fact is that England dont play leg-spin well it was shown in the ashes & in phases in Pakistan. So imagine then coming up againts two i can see England's batsmen having problems. Also give some examples where MacGill has been useless when he has had helpful conditions because i'm struggling to remember any..

SL 2004\05.
England have had problems against quality wristspin. England have played MacGill without problem, in 2002\03.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

you dont think bracken has failed enough as it is? but for that one inning where the ball swung around against the WI hes looked innocous without question.

No. So far he has been tidy all the time and dangerous when it swings. That's pretty much what his role in the team is likely to be, and he's done okay.

I think he's always likely to be a bowler who does better overseas though, and South Africa could be a chance for him to cement his spot in the team. If he doesn't impress on the SA tour, dropping him would be fair. He hasn't done anything to warrant it so far.

 

[Richard]

I woudn't call a FC average 32.36 extremely ordinary at all, after all he is only 20 & last season at a young age he lead durham's attack commendably taking 51 wickets @30

I would call it ordinary.
To be even remotely considered as a Test bowler you can't possibly have a First-Class average over 30.

 

[Richard]

ok if as you claim you have seen Lee bowl in all the test just concluded & say you can't see him causing england much problems next year you have to be out of your mind..

For one thing I can't see him bowling this well for long.
For another - even if he has bowled better than usual, he's still been pretty moderate.

 

[Richard]

The problem with this is that Plunkett hardly took a lower order wicket all season (the other bowlers were left to take them), the only team he ran through the tail against was Lancashire, other than this he'd picked up the odd tailender - I reckon less than 10 of those 51 FC wickets last season were tailenders (8-11 in the order say). This is the part of the trouble with the FC stats nazis out there (not you particularly) who would have left the likes of Simon Jones, Harmison and so on to rot in county cricket while having England's bowling attack lead by Kirtley, Saggers and Jonathon Lewis.

Because of course Harmison is such a wonderful bowler and Jones was such a wonderful bowler when picked...

 

[Richard]

thats not what i mean. Yes Freddie has developed the art of swing & ptiches the ball up a lot moore but naturally he is a hit the deck bowler just like Plunks & Harmy.

No he used to be such, and he used to be extremely mediocre.
Harmison and Plunkett still are, and are still mediocre.

 

[Richard]

2. I am not too up to date with those 1st class stats, but has is the case down in Australia with Johnson he was picked on potential & he definately showed it..

Yes indeed showed such wonderful potential by being smashed all over everywhere by the magnificent batting-line-up of New Zealand...

 

[marc71178]

To be even remotely considered as a Test bowler you can't possibly have a First-Class average over 30.

SP Jones - 216 wickets : 31.50

 

[Jamee999]

He's lucky.

 

[Scaly piscine]

SP Jones - 216 wickets : 31.50

Here's another example... 252 wickets @ 31.65... have a guess.






















Andrew Flintoff.

 

[marc71178]

But Scaly, Flintoff has only been good for about 6 or 7 games.

Ignore the fact that he's picked up 120 wickets @ 24.90 in his last 30 games, it's only the last few he's been any good.

 

[UncleTheOne]

But Scaly, Flintoff has only been good for about 6 or 7 games.

Ignore the fact that he's picked up 120 wickets @ 24.90 in his last 30 games, it's only the last few he's been any good.

Bloody hell!! Didn't realise his record was that good. Only second to Mcgrath in my eyes when it comes to quicks at the moment.

 

[tooextracool]

thats not what i mean. Yes Freddie has developed the art of swing & ptiches the ball up a lot moore but naturally he is a hit the deck bowler just like Plunks & Harmy. .

even when freddie used to be a 'hit the deck' bowler, he used to still bowl at 90mph,same with harmison. plunkett is really nowhere close to that pace. for a hit the deck bowler to be even remotely successful he has to be bowling at a brisk pace, and ideally also be tall.

I never said or reffered the thought that i though Plunks could be a success just being a `hit the deck bowler` obviously he will need to develop in the area..

well he needs to develop a lot. he needs to learn new variations with the ball, and this should come in FC cricket, not at the international arena.

 

[tooextracool]

1. Firstly did you actually see him bowl on his debut?, because if you saw him i dont think you would be so harsh on him.., also i dont think he was selected for the OD series just because he showed some ability with the bat, i pretty sure it was because of the potential the management saw after the Lahore test. After the team came back home a lot of people where saying he was the biggest plus to come out of the tour...

1) i did see him bowl on test debut and i thought he was mediocre.
2)i said that he would have been dropped after the ODI series were it not for his batting
3)and the only reason people said that he was the biggest plus of the tour is because he came it with one of the best averages in the series. unfortunately that was with the bat,, with the ball he had one of the worst averages. with fletcher and everyone elses obsession with all rounders, they ignore the fact that he was mediocre with his primary skill.

2. I am not too up to date with those 1st class stats, but has is the case down in Australia with Johnson he was picked on potential & he definately showed it..

johnson? what has he ever done at the international level?

 

[Scaly piscine]

Bloody hell!! Didn't realise his record was that good. Only second to Mcgrath in my eyes when it comes to quicks at the moment.

Hmm... but you have to remember to remove 2 thirds of McGrath's wickets, because they're just from batsmen deliberately picking him to play bad shots against*...






*reference to Richard (aka Motson) who reckons McGrath is rubbish, just in case you've not been on this site long enough to see what he's like

 

[tooextracool]

No. So far he has been tidy all the time and dangerous when it swings. That's pretty much what his role in the team is likely to be, and he's done okay.

which means that its fine for him to be wicketless for about 9 innings and then when the ball finally swings to be threatening? i honestly cant see how him bing tidy is going to win back the ashes for australia, and once mcgrath and warne retire there is no real hope for him anyways.

I think he's always likely to be a bowler who does better overseas though, and South Africa could be a chance for him to cement his spot in the team. If he doesn't impress on the SA tour, dropping him would be fair. He hasn't done anything to warrant it so far.

well even if he does well in SA, it will only delay the inevitable. honestly though bracken isnt even that good when the ball is swinging, unlike hoggard he cant even swing the ball both ways.