**.....UNOFFICIAL.....** ASHES 2007 thread

[Richard]

Which rules out pretty much England's attack then.

The same attack that pretty much dominated Australia in the Ashes.

Flintoff and Jones?
I'd have had no problem with either being selected were they bowling like they bowled last summer (and almost certainly getting the figures at domestic level bowling like it).

 

[Richard]

Do you own a mirror by any chance?

No, but there are plenty in our house.

 

[Richard]

presumably you mean reverse swing, which is what he used effectively at Lords in 2004, Simon Jones has been reversing the ball far before that. i recommend that you read this piece http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ma...l15.xml&sSheet=/sport/2006/01/15/ixcrick.html
i found it to be quite fascinating not just because it shows exactly when jones started to develop the art of reverse but also proves that waqar had absolutely no influence on him when it came to learning reverse as many have suggested.

Well I'd never heard anyone suggest it...
Interesting indeed, but the fact remains that he'd never looked like bowling it in a Test-match (or indeed any other matches, presumably), and there must be some reason for that.

 

[marc71178]

Flintoff and Jones?
I'd have had no problem with either being selected were they bowling like they bowled last summer (and almost certainly getting the figures at domestic level bowling like it).

But they have FC averages over 30.

 

[aussie]

Why?
If Warne is at the other end history shows it's rare that both will get good figures.

you were saying that england played him fairly well in the 2 test the last time england were out in australia, but he was the playing as the main spinner, we all know he is a wicket-taking spinner & is prone to being expensive. I am saying with Warne at the other end who will bowl well, it will help MacGill..

 

[aussie]

And believe it or not Dennis Lillee does not know everything about everyone he's ever seen. He can be wrong and may well be on this occasion.
Fact is, however much potential both may or may not have, they're extremely moderate bowlers at the present time and what they (and their international sides) need is not to play international cricket but work somewhere where they can improve and begin to look like fulfilling this potential.

agreed..

 

[aussie]

Wow, a couple of deliveries - no bowler bowls every delivery the same.
Flintoff, like any bowler, can bang the odd one in, but the way he gets his wickets is by pitching the ball up and swinging it, bowling cutters and, when the pitch allows, seaming it.

fair enough..

 

[tooextracool]

Well I'd never heard anyone suggest it...
Interesting indeed, but the fact remains that he'd never looked like bowling it in a Test-match (or indeed any other matches, presumably), and there must be some reason for that.

the obvious reason was that he played only 1 full test match before that freak injury in australia. when he returned for the tour of WI, he was clearly not match fit, and its not surprising either, considering that he played about 3 FC games on the A tour(after being out for a year) before being drafted into the side

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

which means that its fine for him to be wicketless for about 9 innings and then when the ball finally swings to be threatening? i honestly cant see how him bing tidy is going to win back the ashes for australia, and once mcgrath and warne retire there is no real hope for him anyways.

Who said anything about him being wicketless for 9 innings? I'm saying if he takes relatively few wickets but keeps it tight in unfriendly conditions and is dangerous when it swings he will be doing a valuable job for Australia. Obviously if he goes wicketless for the best part of 5 tests he's being useless, but if he's taking 1/40 off 20 or whatever when the ball isn't swinging and picking up wickets when he does he's doing a good job.

well even if he does well in SA, it will only delay the inevitable. honestly though bracken isnt even that good when the ball is swinging, unlike hoggard he cant even swing the ball both ways.

Actually, Bracken can swing the ball away from the right-hander, and does so occasionally, but only when it's really moving. Regardless, he doesn't really need to be able to do that. If he's able to consistently get swing in to right-handers he's going to get plenty of wickets, given that he is accurate and has a fair few good variation balls. Out of curiosity, have you actually -seen- Bracken bowl in swing friendly conditions? The closest he's gotten in tests is the Gabba game against the West Indies where the ball was going a bit in the second innings, but conditions really weren't all that helpful really, and he only got a little swing. When the ball is really going, Bracken is as dangerous as anyone, as you can see from looking at his first class record in the last couple of seasons.

Anyway, I can't really see Bracken having a magnificent test career either, but I do think he's a pretty good option, particularly in places like South Africa and England, if he gets it right. If he isn't effective then he will be replaced, but he is certainly worth a decent run in the side. Certainly, I can't see any reason he can't do the same sort of job that Hoggard does for England.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

and like plunkett, johnson failed miserably with the ball at the international level.

Little bit premature, don't you think? He played one game, after all.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Little bit premature, don't you think? He played one game, after all.

I can't be arsed to plough through the rest of the thread to find out, but which Johnson was TEC referring to? Richard Johnson?

Ah, TEC & Richard bickering, it's just like the old days!

 

[marc71178]

you were saying that england played him fairly well in the 2 test the last time england were out in australia, but he was the playing as the main spinner, we all know he is a wicket-taking spinner & is prone to being expensive.

And if he can't bowl well as the main spinner, how is he that good?

 

[Richard]

But they have FC averages over 30.

And they have outstanding recent Test averages.
Point?

 

[Richard]

you were saying that england played him fairly well in the 2 test the last time england were out in australia, but he was the playing as the main spinner, we all know he is a wicket-taking spinner & is prone to being expensive. I am saying with Warne at the other end who will bowl well, it will help MacGill..

Usually it's either helped one or the other but not both.
And if I had to guess, I'd go for Warne getting good figures and MacGill not.

 

[Richard]

the obvious reason was that he played only 1 full test match before that freak injury in australia. when he returned for the tour of WI, he was clearly not match fit, and its not surprising either, considering that he played about 3 FC games on the A tour(after being out for a year) before being drafted into the side

What's interesting is that, among the "he can bowl as quick as Jeff Thomson!"; "he can bowl as quick as Brett Lee!" (fastest he's ever been timed at is about 92-3 IIRR) hyperbolic nonsense, there was an occasional comment of "he can bowl useful reverse-swing since that stint at the Academy, and he's even begun to get the new-ball to go out a bit".
Whatever he's been able to bowl, though, his accuracy remained pretty poor. Even last summer as he was taking bucketloads of wickets he was still usually going for quite a few. And believe it or not that India Test was not the only game of cricket he'd played. If he was bowling like he bowled last summer at any time, at any level of cricket, he'd have been taking bucketloads of wickets. And in general, he wasn't.

 

[Richard]

Little bit premature, don't you think? He played one game, after all.

Not really - fact is Johnson failed miserably, even if it was only in 1 game.
And based on his domestic record I'd not be surprised to see him fail miserably again if he plays in South Africa.

 

[Richard]

I can't be arsed to plough through the rest of the thread to find out, but which Johnson was TEC referring to? Richard Johnson?

Mitchell, whose only ODI spell against the mighty New Zealand was 9-64-0.

Ah, TEC & Richard bickering, it's just like the old days!

Those days are gone for never, you shouldn't let 'em go, but...

 

[aussie]

its not as if he bowled poorly...

 

[Richard]

Isn't it?
I wouldn't find it remotely difficult to believe he bowled extremely poorly - he seems to have done so for most of his career.

 

[tooextracool]

Who said anything about him being wicketless for 9 innings? I'm saying if he takes relatively few wickets but keeps it tight in unfriendly conditions and is dangerous when it swings he will be doing a valuable job for Australia. Obviously if he goes wicketless for the best part of 5 tests he's being useless, but if he's taking 1/40 off 20 or whatever when the ball isn't swinging and picking up wickets when he does he's doing a good job.

i can hardly see how 1/40 is anything useful, and as ive said earlier, once mcgrath and warne go it would be even more worthless.

Actually, Bracken can swing the ball away from the right-hander, and does so occasionally, but only when it's really moving. Regardless, he doesn't really need to be able to do that. If he's able to consistently get swing in to right-handers he's going to get plenty of wickets, given that he is accurate and has a fair few good variation balls. Out of curiosity, have you actually -seen- Bracken bowl in swing friendly conditions? The closest he's gotten in tests is the Gabba game against the West Indies where the ball was going a bit in the second innings, but conditions really weren't all that helpful really, and he only got a little swing. When the ball is really going, Bracken is as dangerous as anyone, as you can see from looking at his first class record in the last couple of seasons.

the game against the WI had a good deal of swing actually, and given how incapable most of the WI players are against left arm swing, it was almost inevitable that he would take wickets: vaas has made a mockery of the WI everytime hes got the ball to swing against them.

Anyway, I can't really see Bracken having a magnificent test career either, but I do think he's a pretty good option, particularly in places like South Africa and England, if he gets it right. If he isn't effective then he will be replaced, but he is certainly worth a decent run in the side. Certainly, I can't see any reason he can't do the same sort of job that Hoggard does for England.

Hoggard swings the ball in many more conditions than Bracken does. Bracken only really swings the ball(or anything noticeable) when the conditions are significantly in his favor. and even when he does manage to swing the ball he swings it only one way(as opposed to hoggard). for me Bracken is no better than alan mullally or irfan pathan. all 3 of them have very good control when they swing the ball, but none have any sort of variety of signifcance. Mullally for me is the perfect example for Bracken though, both are tall, left handed, one dimensional with relation to swing and economical(Mullally was quite an ODI bowler though). of course i'd love to hear what Bracken has that mullally didnt, or I'd like to hear about how Mullally was test class.