**.....UNOFFICIAL.....** ASHES 2007 thread

[mikeW]

I really, really hope McGrath's wife's condition does not stop him playing in The Ashes, and equally I hope Gillespie gets back into the team and stays there.
But equally, I still can't see Lee, Tait or MacGill causing us too many problems. And certainly not Watson.
Can see him scoring plenty of runs, though.

Obviously havent watched Lee bowl much lately have you?

 

[Richard]

Yep.
And he's still been pretty average, just not quite as average as he usually is.

 

[howardj]

Just though i'd bring this up again & looking at how possibly Australian and England will go in test within the next year, this is what i guess the teams could strongly look like in the 1st test on November 23rd:

AUSTRALIA:

JL Langer
ML Hayden
RT Ponting
MEK Hussey
SR Watson
MJ Clarke
AC Gilchrist
SK Warne
B Lee
GD McGrath
SW Tait

ENGLAND:

I like the side that you've picked there. My only change would probably be MacGill to make the XI, and Tait to be 12th man. I don't think the quicks will win us back the Ashes next summer. If anyone, it will be the 'leather-twirlers' (*Roebuckism* ).

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

I like aussie's side as well.

I think the selectors are fairly set on picking 3 quicks and 2 spinners in the 12 in each game and rotating the third seamer with MacGill based on the pitch, and I imagine that will continue until the Ashes.

McGrath, Lee and Warne are certainties barring misadventure, and I think Bracken has the inside running for the third quick spot. Between now and then, Bracken's got a chance to prove himself first against South Africa and then in Bangladesh. I think it's likely that if he can show himself to be a major force in swing friendly conditions and economical in non-friendly conditions he will retain his place. With McGrath and Lee in the team, I don't think the selectors (or Ponting) would be too displeased with the next seamer being able to keep it tight at the very least, and occasionally be a real force. If he's taking 1/40 off 20 overs when the ball is swinging though, he'll go.

In order for Tait to get the spot, he'll firstly need Bracken to fail, and secondly make the very most out of whatever chances he gets in the near future. It's obvious that the selectors have removed him from the equation for now based on his efforts in England, and he'll need to finish this Pura Cup season strongly to get back into the mix, and then turn it on as soon as he gets picked for Australia to keep his spot.

Gillespie is gone, in my mind, and I'd be surprised to see him play again. I certainly think he's good enough, but I just doubt they'll be willing to go back to him - same as Martyn and Katich.

Watson needs to show something one one discipline or another in South Africa. He's likely to get picked for the tests in my view, and if he either performs once or twice with the ball or makes a big score with the bat he'll get a good 6 months leeway afterwards to try and mature into the all-rounders role. If he has a genuine shocker, I think they'll discard him for a while and we'll be looking at 4 bowlers and 7 batsmen in the Ashes.

Langer, Hayden, Ponting, Hussey and Gilchrist are obviously certainties. The only "if" in the batting is about the 5-6 spots. I'm inclined to agree that Clarke will be back in the Australian team at Hodge's expense by then, but really that will hang on how well Hodge bats between now and then. If Watson doesn't cement his spot as the all-rounder, it'll be both Hodge and Clarke.

 

[aussie]

But equally, I still can't see Lee, Tait or MacGill causing us too many problems. And certainly not Watson.
Can see him scoring plenty of runs, though.

really you got to be joking about MacGill & Lee. Have you seen Lee bowl in test this summer & why cant MacGill be dangerous in the ashes when conditions suite hmm?, Look at the problems Warne caused Englad on his own imagine what 2 could do..

Also yea for now Tait wouldn't be a great bet to cause england headache but the bloke has potential if he reaches his potential with the ball time at the highest level before the ashes he could well and be a treat. Watson i doubt he may just be a good tie up bowler..

 

[Richard]

Watson a good tie-up bowler? One thing I can't ever see him being.
As I've said before - MacGill is usually pretty capable of being useless whether conditions do or don't suit him. Just because Warne caused problems means little - MacGill is nowhere near as good as Warne.
How many people have to ask me "have you see Lee bowl this summer?" I don't know. I repeat - yes, I have, and there's not THAT much difference and I still can't really see him causing too many problems to too many people.

 

[tooextracool]

why?, i dunno he showed a lot of potential in PAK & if he keeps improving by the end of this year he could well & edge Hoggard out IMO. He is a hit the deck bowler like Freddie & Harmison so those pitches down under could suit him, plus he is very capable with the bat..

did he really show that much potential? maybe with the bat, which is not what he was picked for ITFP. an average of 38 at over 6 runs an over is extremely difficult to be proud of, and when you look a his extremely ordinary FC record you only wonder what he was doing playing for the national side.

 

[tooextracool]

In order for Tait to get the spot, he'll firstly need Bracken to fail, and secondly make the very most out of whatever chances he gets in the near future. It's obvious that the selectors have removed him from the equation for now based on his efforts in England, and he'll need to finish this Pura Cup season strongly to get back into the mix, and then turn it on as soon as he gets picked for Australia to keep his spot..

you dont think bracken has failed enough as it is? but for that one inning where the ball swung around against the WI hes looked innocous without question.

 

[Richard]

did he really show that much potential? maybe with the bat, which is not what he was picked for ITFP. an average of 38 at over 6 runs an over is extremely difficult to be proud of, and when you look a his extremely ordinary FC record you only wonder what he was doing playing for the national side.

Some hacks decided he had potential.
And maybe he does, but it sure as is rough.
And quite possibly he doesn't.

 

[aussie]

There's no such thing as a "hit-the-deck" bowler.
Plunkett is a Harmison-like bowler who has little to recommend him other than his remarkable ability to spray the ball regularly and still extract some number of poor strokes.
To compare either to Flintoff is a gross insult to the big man.

what do mean their is no such thing has a hit the deck bowler, i have heard bowlers like Harmison, Dizzy, Plunks, Freddie, Oram etc referred to by commentators has that?

Obviously Plunks & Harmy aren't better bowlers that freddie but they are similar in the way they bowl..

 

[aussie]

Watson a good tie-up bowler? One thing I can't ever see him being.
As I've said before - MacGill is usually pretty capable of being useless whether conditions do or don't suit him. Just because Warne caused problems means little - MacGill is nowhere near as good as Warne.
How many people have to ask me "have you see Lee bowl this summer?" I don't know. I repeat - yes, I have, and there's not THAT much difference and I still can't really see him causing too many problems to too many people.

well i dunno about Watson after the SA series i'll make a better assesment on where his bowling is & what kind of bowler he can become at the highest level.

No one is debating if MacGill, but the fact is that England dont play leg-spin well it was shown in the ashes & in phases in Pakistan. So imagine then coming up againts two i can see England's batsmen having problems. Also give some examples where MacGill has been useless when he has had helpful conditions because i'm struggling to remember any..

 

[aussie]

did he really show that much potential? maybe with the bat, which is not what he was picked for ITFP. an average of 38 at over 6 runs an over is extremely difficult to be proud of, and when you look a his extremely ordinary FC record you only wonder what he was doing playing for the national side.

well yes he did, you got to look beyond the stats. In the lahore test when Pakistan piled up over 600 i thought he bowled very well under the circumstances & in the OD series also where not many of englad seamers weren't that fantastic, even though he was expensive like them all i thought he was good and showed a lot of potential.

I woudn't call a FC average 32.36 extremely ordinary at all, after all he is only 20 & last season at a young age he lead durham's attack commendably taking 51 wickets @30

 

[superkingdave]

I woudn't call a FC average 32.36 extremely ordinary at all, after all he is only 20 & last season at a young age he lead durham's attack commendably taking 51 wickets @30

being 20 is not an excuse if you are expecting him to be an England international at this moment. I wouldn't say he led Durham's attack either - he was Durham's worst regular bowler outside Gareth Breese.

 

[aussie]

With McGrath and Lee in the team, I don't think the selectors (or Ponting) would be too displeased with the next seamer being able to keep it tight at the very least, and occasionally be a real force. If he's taking 1/40 off 20 overs when the ball is swinging though, he'll go.

Gillespie is gone, in my mind, and I'd be surprised to see him play again. I certainly think he's good enough, but I just doubt they'll be willing to go back to him - same as Martyn and Katich.

1. On Bracken looking at him i feel that in tests even if its swinging he may not be as destructive as he been on occasions in FC cricket but then again i'm willing to wait & see how things go with him in SA. But alternatively once fully fit & bowling well i would still pick either Tait or Dizzy over him in my test side.

2. I would hate to think that its all over for Dizzy & i dont thin the selectors have totally written him of as yet because it was only the other day i saw Hohns say in an artice that all Dizzy needs to now in FC cricket is show them that he can cut it at test level again & he will be in the reckoning again...

 

[aussie]

How many people have to ask me "have you see Lee bowl this summer?" I don't know. I repeat - yes, I have, and there's not THAT much difference and I still can't really see him causing too many problems to too many people.

ok if as you claim you have seen Lee bowl in all the test just concluded & say you can't see him causing england much problems next year you have to be out of your mind..

 

[Scaly piscine]

being 20 is not an excuse if you are expecting him to be an England international at this moment. I wouldn't say he led Durham's attack either - he was Durham's worst regular bowler outside Gareth Breese.

The problem with this is that Plunkett hardly took a lower order wicket all season (the other bowlers were left to take them), the only team he ran through the tail against was Lancashire, other than this he'd picked up the odd tailender - I reckon less than 10 of those 51 FC wickets last season were tailenders (8-11 in the order say). This is the part of the trouble with the FC stats nazis out there (not you particularly) who would have left the likes of Simon Jones, Harmison and so on to rot in county cricket while having England's bowling attack lead by Kirtley, Saggers and Jonathon Lewis.

 

[howardj]

ok if as you claim you have seen Lee bowl in all the test just concluded & say you can't see him causing england much problems next year you have to be out of your mind..

To be fair, though, England will (particularly Vaughan) 'go after' Lee much more than either the WI or SA. And, when the batsmen 'go after' Lee, that's when he has the tendency to lose the discipline that he displayed against the aforementioned teams this summer.

 

[tooextracool]

what do mean their is no such thing has a hit the deck bowler, i have heard bowlers like Harmison, Dizzy, Plunks, Freddie, Oram etc referred to by commentators has that?

Obviously Plunks & Harmy aren't better bowlers that freddie but they are similar in the way they bowl..

i dont see how they are similar. freddie if it isnt glaringly obvious already is no longer that 'bang it in' bowler and has recently developed the art of swing. and anyone who thinks that Plunkett can achieve any sort of success by being a 'hit the deck bowler' and bowling at 83-85mph, needs their head examined IMO.

 

[tooextracool]

well yes he did, you got to look beyond the stats. In the lahore test when Pakistan piled up over 600 i thought he bowled very well under the circumstances & in the OD series also where not many of englad seamers weren't that fantastic, even though he was expensive like them all i thought he was good and showed a lot of potential.

i struggle too name too many bowlers who had worse series figures than him. he had one good game, which was more likely to be a fluke than anything else. and i dont know how he bowled well in the lahore test when he went at 4.45 runs an over and was one of the more expensive bowlers in the england side.
were it not for his batting, i can give you a money back guarantee that he would have been dropped at the end of the ODI series.

I woudn't call a FC average 32.36 extremely ordinary at all, after all he is only 20 & last season at a young age he lead durham's attack commendably taking 51 wickets @30

considering that davies plays for the same team and averages nearly half of what he does, id say that is pretty bad. the conditions on his home ground are supposed to be seamer friendly, an average of over 32 is poor regardless but when looked at it in context with the other bowlers in the same side its even worse

 

[aussie]

To be fair, though, England will (particularly Vaughan) 'go after' Lee much more than either the WI or SA. And, when the batsmen 'go after' Lee, that's when he has the tendency to lose the discipline that he displayed against the aforementioned teams this summer.

hmmm interesting i think your right, the only real time when he attacked was in the 2nd half of his spell vs WI that afternoon in adelaide when he took the new ball & was bowling very wayward to Lara. So yea he may still have to work of this aspect because for Australia's sake Lee cannot afford to make that mistake in the ashes..