The better batsman the bettter #3 Ponting vs Dravid

[Tom Halsey]

lillee and mcgrath are 2 bowlers that came from Australia in the past. i dont deny that Australia used to have plenty of assistance in their pitches before. it is rather ironic though that almost every fast bowler who has made his debut after 2000 from Australia (bracken, brad williams, stuart clark, shaun tait etc) has been rather pathetic. although i wouldnt know much about the domestic scene, i have often been told that their domestic wickets tend to offer a lot more for their bowlers than the international wickets do, at least off late.

That's because they're not very good (though I do think Tait has potential).

They'll produce a few more in time.

 

[aussie]

I got the stats from one series, check the post I quoted from Aussie, I didn't check the stats, but I doubt he'd understate Ponting's average if he's pro-Ponting.

yea 33 in 2004 & 50 overall.

 

[marc71178]

the way he attempted to play them unlike past encounters in 2001 & 98, only if saw it you would understand where i'm coming from..

So please tell us how the 3 balls he faced from Kumble (1 of which dismissed him) showed anything then?

 

[marc71178]

why not?, you had to see him to understand, plus if you dont want to accept that use SRI 2004 where he faced Murali in his on backyard on equally difficult conditions as India and managed to average 33.

Coincidentally the same amount for which you're putting Dravid down...

 

[aussie]

So please tell us how the 3 balls he faced from Kumble (1 of which dismissed him) showed anything then?

all i'm saying here is the way he was attempting to play them was much better than in 98 & 2001 i.e soft hands & coming down the track unlike before where he was stuck to the crease & played his strokes very tentatively, simple.

 

[aussie]

Coincidentally the same amount for which you're putting Dravid down...

come again, dont get you here?

 

[marc71178]

come again, dont get you here?

Well Dravid's average of 33 vs the 2 Aussie greats isn't that good from your comments.

Yet Pontings average of 33 in a series vs Murali is proof he can play spin...

 

[Pratters]

Well Dravid's average of 33 vs the 2 Aussie greats isn't that good from your comments.

Yet Pontings average of 33 in a series vs Murali is proof he can play spin...

It is really funny how allegations have been made that Dravid and Ponting cannot play spin, Dravid is not that good because of an average of so an so versus McGrath and Warne.

 

[Pratters]

looking at all the runs Ponting has made in the last couple of years, is he now a certainty in an all-time Aussie middle-order. I would think now that an all-time aussie top middle order it would be:

Harvey
Bradman
Chappel
Miller
Gilchrist

Could Ponting fit in their now?

Umm sorry but stats arent every thing.

EDIT - Border scored a lot of runs but many would still not have him in the all time Aussie XI.

 

[Pratters]

If you compare the career strike rates, in both test and ODI cricket, of Kallis and Dravid, the similarity is freakishly uncanny. They are both clearly relatively slow scorers compared to other batsman around the world atm. As much as I hate to say it, this probably puts Ponting slightly ahead of them in my books.

Both type of players have their utility in a team. So just because player X scores faster than player Y, it wouldnt put him ahead in a test match.

Its a 5 day match and a team game and to build a score, a sheet anchor, anattacking player - all are useful.

A common arguement will be - in a scenario where quick runs are needed Ponting will be more useful.

1) Even in that scenario a Dravid at an end could be useful for the attacking players to pile the runs from the other end having the assurance of one player keeping an end safe.

2) There are scenrios where you have to play a defensive role (when encountering difficult weather conditions for instance where there is excessive swing, unfavourable conditions to pile the runs) and Dravid would be more useful there. Playing a defensive role in an inning or 2 sessions can contribute as much to a winning cause as an attacking inning.

 

[Top_Cat]

although i wouldnt know much about the domestic scene, i have often been told that their domestic wickets tend to offer a lot more for their bowlers than the international wickets do, at least off late.

I think you should fire your source on that one. Australia's pitches generally have been dead at domestic level for ages. Even the 'Gabba, which used to be a raging seamer is a placid batting paradise in comparison these days. The SCG turns nowhere near as much as it used to, the WACA is pretty flat and the rest of the major grounds have been flat for ages. The minor grounds in Vic and NSW are roads generally. The only possible exception has been Allan Border Oval in QLD. Just have a look at the number of batsmen wih 50+ averages this year;

http://aus.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2005-06/AUS_LOCAL/PC/STATS/PC_2005-06_BAT_MOST_RUNS.html

That and we had three players belting 1000+ run seasons last year (including 8 tons in 9 games from Bevan).

http://aus.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2004-05/AUS_LOCAL/PC/STATS/PC_2004-05_BAT_MOST_RUNS.html

And the year before that, Matt Elliott scored 7 tons. In fact, that year, the lowest average in the top-10 run-scorers was Shane Watson with 54.61! And Vic smacked QLD for 710 in the final that year.

http://aus.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2003-04/AUS_LOCAL/PC/STATS/PC_2003-04_BAT_MOST_RUNS.html

I, in fact, struggle to think of any deck in Australia which gives bowlers any genuine encouragement these days.

 

[aussie]

Well Dravid's average of 33 vs the 2 Aussie greats isn't that good from your comments.

Yet Pontings average of 33 in a series vs Murali is proof he can play spin...

you sure i said that, i'm arguing all the time that Ponting has improved his ability to play spin on turners since 2001, i'm aware of Dravid's 33 vs them overall but when both of them were at their best he averages 21, but i haven't really argued that.

 

[aussie]

Umm sorry but stats arent every thing.

Border scored a lot of runs but not many would have him in the all time Aussie XI.

so what are you saying then?

 

[Pratters]

so what are you saying then?

I thought I made myself pretty clear when I said

stats arent every thing.

 

[aussie]

I thought I made myself pretty clear when I said

well not to me, i 'm asking if anyone thinks Ponting can force away in all-time aussie middle-order now based on the runs he has made in the last 3 1/2 years. Border yes made a lot of runs but without doubt Ponting is a better batsman than him & has the magic flair about him that makes a strong candidate to make an ausse time xi if not now definately by the end of his career.

 

[Pratters]

Okay - the thing is Ponting may score 15,000 test runs and still it may be difficult for him to make the all time Australia XI.

Australia has had such a strong side over the decades. Just like Border, despite all his runs, wouldnt make the all time Australian team of many people.

A team of Faip when I did a quick search - http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost.php?p=433609&postcount=56

Ponting would have to compete for a spot with the likes of Steve Waugh, Greg Chappell, Border, Neil Harvey.

 

[luckyeddie]

Umm sorry but stats arent every thing.

Border scored a lot of runs but not many would have him in the all time Aussie XI.

I might have him in as captain though - he did more than anyone to drag them up by their bootstraps and turn them into winners.

 

[aussie]

Okay - the thing is Ponting may score 15,000 test runs and still it may be difficult for him to make the all time Australia XI.

Australia has had such a strong side over the decades. Just like Border, despite all his runs, wouldnt make the all time Australian team of many people.

A team of Faip when I did a quick search - http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost.php?p=433609&postcount=56

Ponting would have to compete for a spot with the likes of Steve Waugh, Greg Chappell, Border, Neil Harvey.

From 3 to 7 i would think Bradman, Chappell & Gilchrist are certainties the rest are debatable, Ponting has i said before unlike Border who was a hard working batsman who scored so many runs basically because he played for so long didn't have the class & flair like a Ponting, Harvey or Chappell, so IMO if Ponting where to score 15,000 test runs he would have a real strong case.

 

[Jono]

If he gets 15 000 test runs averaging something similar to what he averages now, or hell just over 50 even, he'd make an all-time Aus test side. But he's a long way from 15 000 test runs, and that is mammoth ask. He'd have to almost double his current tally.

 

[marc71178]

you sure i said that, i'm arguing all the time that Ponting has improved his ability to play spin on turners since 2001, i'm aware of Dravid's 33 vs them overall but when both of them were at their best he averages 21, but i haven't really argued that.

You what?

It's clearly yet again a case of Australian is better in your eyes since you've used the same average to put one down whilst championed it from another.