The better batsman the bettter #3 Ponting vs Dravid

[tooextracool]

I think you should fire your source on that one. Australia's pitches generally have been dead at domestic level for ages. Even the 'Gabba, which used to be a raging seamer is a placid batting paradise in comparison these days. The SCG turns nowhere near as much as it used to, the WACA is pretty flat and the rest of the major grounds have been flat for ages. The minor grounds in Vic and NSW are roads generally. The only possible exception has been Allan Border Oval in QLD. Just have a look at the number of batsmen wih 50+ averages this year;

http://aus.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2005-06/AUS_LOCAL/PC/STATS/PC_2005-06_BAT_MOST_RUNS.html

That and we had three players belting 1000+ run seasons last year (including 8 tons in 9 games from Bevan).

http://aus.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2004-05/AUS_LOCAL/PC/STATS/PC_2004-05_BAT_MOST_RUNS.html

And the year before that, Matt Elliott scored 7 tons. In fact, that year, the lowest average in the top-10 run-scorers was Shane Watson with 54.61! And Vic smacked QLD for 710 in the final that year.

http://aus.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2003-04/AUS_LOCAL/PC/STATS/PC_2003-04_BAT_MOST_RUNS.html

I, in fact, struggle to think of any deck in Australia which gives bowlers any genuine encouragement these days.

i wasnt aware of that, its quite interesting to see darren lehmann topping the run scoring chart for the season so far though. certainly looks as though the domestic pitches in australia have followed the pattern of the pitches we've seen for the international games.

 

[tooextracool]

you sure i said that, i'm arguing all the time that Ponting has improved his ability to play spin on turners since 2001, i'm aware of Dravid's 33 vs them overall but when both of them were at their best he averages 21, but i haven't really argued that.

rather ironic then that he averaged 84 in SL in 99 and then came to India and looked like a complete novice against spin in 2001 though.

 

[tooextracool]

Dravid averaging 33 vs OZ when McGrath & Warne have played would obviously be classified has a failure looking has his glittering record in most area's.

nope dravids record against mcgrath and warne is ordinary, compared to pontings record in India which is a joke.

 

[Sanz]

and before that last game in bangalore, afridi was averaging 39 with the ball after 4 games. fact is that afridi has only bowled in india as a part timer, and as such has been spared from being hammered all over the park when he wasnt getting any wickets.

I am sick and tired of your selective quoting of stats. The fact is that even a part time spinner could succeed in India over a period of time and Afridi's success has proved that. This time around he wasn't a part time spinner, Go and check the match. Since you are such fans of selective quoting why dont you tell us Dravid's stats excluding his 180 and 81 Vs. Mcgrath/Warne and Co. ?

and i of course claimed that hussey has failed havent i? in much the same way that you cant call hussey a success based on the number of tests hes played you cannot call boje a success when he had 1 good inning in the subcontinent.

I will call Hussey's performance as Success, you call it whatever you want. What's your fixation with 1 Good inning ? It just cant be a co-incident that 5-6 spinners from different countries came and had success in India in their only series they played there...To me it looks like a trend that Spinners can indeed succeed in India and pooh pooh's your claim that spinners have not succeeded there.

have they succeeded? NO. i said that warne simply couldnt do what almost no one else had managed to do before, i.e succeed in India. and for heavens sake stop including bowlers like ray price when they couldnt even maintain averages of below 30 despite getting favorable conditions to do so. ashley giles averaged 33, that isnt success either. you have 2 bowlers, 1 a part timer, the other saqlain, both of whom fit in the category of almost no one.

Yeah Saqlain fits in the category of almost noone, right ? 4 fifers in 6 innings is a failure. Afridi's avg. of 25 over 2 series is a failure but Rahul Dravid's avg of 15 over 2 isn't. Rahul Dravid's avg in SriLanka against Murali is <40 (Ponting is 50) and that isn't a failure agains t Spin While Ponting's is. And I will quote Ray Price everytime you say a spinner has not succeeded in India because he did succeed in the only series he played there. There is no way you can say that he didn't. And one can surely say that Warnie has been terrible in India, even in the last series where he didn't have to bowl to SRT for much of the series and most top order Indian batsmen were out of form, still he could manage only 30..

 

[Sanz]

nope dravids record against mcgrath and warne is ordinary, compared to pontings record in India which is a joke.

Dravid's record against Mcgrath/Warne in Australia is a JOKE.

 

[Top_Cat]

i wasnt aware of that, its quite interesting to see darren lehmann topping the run scoring chart for the season so far though. certainly looks as though the domestic pitches in australia have followed the pattern of the pitches we've seen for the international games.

Yup and it's breeding a subsequent generation of Haydens; front-foot plonked down the pitch, take a nice easy swing, 4 down the ground. Then, of course, they go to England;

"These English bowlers cheat! They're using this new technique called 'swing' and it's getting me out all the time! They must be STOPPED!"

 

[LongHopCassidy]

Dravid's record against Mcgrath/Warne in Australia is a JOKE.

Steady on, he's only played one series under those conditions.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

i wasnt aware of that, its quite interesting to see darren lehmann topping the run scoring chart for the season so far though. certainly looks as though the domestic pitches in australia have followed the pattern of the pitches we've seen for the international games.

I assume you mean that they are offering slightly more for bowlers than usual?

I think what you said originally is true to an extent... that domestic wickets in the last few years have been slightly better for bowling than the test ones. However, the main reason for that is that there's simply more games. In say 04/05, Australia played one test at the SCG, on a fairly flat deck that turned a bit as the game went on. There were a dozen or so domestic games played at the SCG, a couple of them early in the season, and obviously one or two of those are likely to be a bit more bowler friendly, but most of them were flat, like the test wicket. So Bracken happened to get a greentop SCG wicket with heavy cloud cover and take 7/4, while by the time January rolled around the pitch had become a flat one with a bit of turn.

From what I've seen in the Pura Cup this year, there's not been much in the way of assistance for the bowlers. A little here and there, like the pitch Kasprowicz took his 7-fer on was pretty cracked and had uneven bounce, but no raging seamers or anything. Lehmann's just been in top form.

 

[aussie]

rather ironic then that he averaged 84 in SL in 99 and then came to India and looked like a complete novice against spin in 2001 though.

so what does tell you then?

 

[marc71178]

Certainly suggests your 33 argument to be irrelevant.

 

[tooextracool]

I am sick and tired of your selective quoting of stats. The fact is that even a part time spinner could succeed in India over a period of time and Afridi's success has proved that. This time around he wasn't a part time spinner, Go and check the match. Since you are such fans of selective quoting why dont you tell us Dravid's stats excluding his 180 and 81 Vs. Mcgrath/Warne and Co. ?.

oh and what a convincing argument you have. a batsman who succeeds while playing either one of warne or mcgrath but struggles when he plays both .
for the sake of this argument let us assume that afridi has been a success in India, you still have 2 spinners with success in India in more than a decade. agains as i said earlier almost no one.

I will call Hussey's performance as Success, you call it whatever you want. What's your fixation with 1 Good inning ? It just cant be a co-incident that 5-6 spinners from different countries came and had success in India in their only series they played there...To me it looks like a trend that Spinners can indeed succeed in India and pooh pooh's your claim that spinners have not succeeded there.

good god how many times do i have to tell you that boje, afridi and saqlain(the only 3 bowlers with below 30 averages) does not equal to 5-6? you keep exaggerating as much as you like, boje had one fluke game, and was miserable in the other, like it or not that barely proves anything.

Yeah Saqlain fits in the category of almost noone, right ? 4 fifers in 6 innings is a failure. Afridi's avg. of 25 over 2 series is a failure but Rahul Dravid's avg of 15 over 2 isn't.

oh so now 1 super series test is considered to be an entire test series is it? go on, im quite enjoying myself watching you dig your own grave.

Rahul Dravid's avg in SriLanka against Murali is <40 (Ponting is 50) and that isn't a failure agains t Spin While Ponting's is.

ponting has had one good series against spin 7 years ago, since then hes come to India and made all the aussie tailenders look like batting legends. cover him with gold.

And I will quote Ray Price everytime you say a spinner has not succeeded in India because he did succeed in the only series he played there. There is no way you can say that he didn't.

so averaging over 31 in what are spinner friendly conditions is now a success? if that is the case then one might say that since warnes record isnt too much worse he was merely ordinary in india. at least when you compare it to ponting who averaged nearly 45 runs below his career average in India.

And one can surely say that Warnie has been terrible in India, even in the last series where he didn't have to bowl to SRT for much of the series and most top order Indian batsmen were out of form, still he could manage only 30..

indeed, so while ray price is touted as being an all time great for averaging 31 in India, warne is castigated for averaging only 30. well done sherlock.
and do you realise that the only reason the India players were 'out of form', was because the Australian bowlers bowled well to them? but then again if the indian batsmen failed, obviously they were out of form.

 

[tooextracool]

Dravid's record against Mcgrath/Warne in Australia is a JOKE.

in all of 3 games. keep saying it, it might make you feel better.

 

[tooextracool]

so what does tell you then?

well if you think that his average of 33 suggests signs of improvement against spin, then you must have thought that he was an absolute God against spin after he averaged 84 against murali in 99.

 

[aussie]

well if you think that his average of 33 suggests signs of improvement against spin, then you must have thought that he was an absolute God against spin after he averaged 84 against murali in 99.

well if u read one of my post on page 20 you would have seen that i rethought that argument. But the fact that he averaged 84 vs Murali in 99, failed in India twice & was decent in SRI 2 years ago shows he can play spin on turner but just is very inconsistent & not as mad as you are making him out.

 

[marc71178]

well if u read one of my post on page 20 you would have seen that i rethought that argument. But the fact that he averaged 84 vs Murali in 99, failed in India twice & was decent in SRI 2 years ago shows he can play spin on turner but just is very inconsistent & not as mad as you are making him out.

There you go again, calling 33 decent for one man, but a failure for the other.

By that definition Dravid must be better because his "failures" are Ponting's "decents"

 

[Sanz]

good god how many times do i have to tell you that boje, afridi and saqlain(the only 3 bowlers with below 30 averages) does not equal to 5-6? you keep exaggerating as much as you like, boje had one fluke game, and was miserable in the other, like it or not that barely proves anything.

Compared to 54 of Warne's debute series, 30 is a success and pretty decent for spinners of Giles/Price caliber.

oh so now 1 super series test is considered to be an entire test series is it? go on, im quite enjoying myself watching you dig your own grave.

That's rich comeing from someone who keeps mentioning Ponting's failure over a period of 8 years counting one off test in 2003-2004.

ponting has had one good series against spin 7 years ago,

Yeah and you conveniently forget Ponting's performance against Pakistani (in Sri Lanka and UAE) spinners..

so averaging over 31 in what are spinner friendly conditions is now a success?

Compared to Warnie's debute series's avg. (54) or overall avg. (43) it is a success. In either case yes an avg. of 31 is a success. Not to forget that in the last tour Warnie didn't get to face SRT for most of the series.

if that is the case then one might say that since warnes record isnt too much worse he was merely ordinary in india.

Yeah an avg. of 54 in the first series for a spinner of Warne's calibre isn't too much worse and there is not much difference in 54 and 31, Right ??

indeed, so while ray price is touted as being an all time great for averaging 31 in India, warne is castigated for averaging only 30. well done sherlock.

Typical hysterical response from you, who called Ray Price an all time great ? Warne averages 30 in India ?? You need to get your eyes examined. But I should have guessed considering your penchant for selective quoting.Ray Price avg. in debute series 31, Warne's avg. in debut series 54.

and do you realise that the only reason the India players were 'out of form', was because the Australian bowlers bowled well to them? but then again if the indian batsmen failed, obviously they were out of form.

Yeah SRT was injured because aussie bowlers bowled well. VVS laxman was out of form before that check his performance in Pak series...The other batsmen were Ganguly, Yuvraj, Kaif and Sehwag, Karthick..wow what a great batting ling up to bowl to.

 

[aussie]

There you go again, calling 33 decent for one man, but a failure for the other.

By that definition Dravid must be better because his "failures" are Ponting's "decents"

geez you are a real clown you know, what part of this statement did i mention or relate anything to Dravid eh?, shucks man.

 

[Pratters]

I thought Krusty was the clown!

 

[marc71178]

geez you are a real clown you know, what part of this statement did i mention or relate anything to Dravid eh?, shucks man.

You've not yet told us whether you think 33 is good or bad, since you've used it to praise one but put down another.

So which is it?

 

[Tom Halsey]

Typical hysterical response from you, who called Ray Price an all time great ? Warne averages 30 in India ?? You need to get your eyes examined. But I should have guessed considering your penchant for selective quoting.Ray Price avg. in debute series 31, Warne's avg. in debut series 54.

Erm, hang on a second - he wasn't talking about debut series.