The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[capt_Luffy]

Botham was a matchwinner. And the best bowler in the world for three years when some of the giants were in the business. The then world record 27 fivefers is no joke.

Had one of the greatest peaks of all time, but the rest of 2/3 of his career was decent at best.

 

[Coronis]

It may seem crazy picking Hobbs not as an opener, but thinking on it more - he had a SR of 50, definitely more aggressive than either Sutcliffe or Hutton (though thats part of what made him and Sutcliffe a great combo). You could definitely argue he is most suited of the three to play at #3, if you choose to play 3.

For me, those 5 bats are settled. I’m also sure of Knott, Trueman and Barnes, I think I’ll take Laker over Verity. So that leaves me two spots, with 3 contenders.

Those 3 for me being Root, Botham and Anderson.

 

[Qlder]

Had one of the greatest peaks of all time, but the rest of 2/3 of his career was decent at best.

You have to be joking. Botham was an ATG for at least 3/4 of his career. It was just the last 25 Tests or so that he was mediocre (he should have retired but Eng kept picking him because there was still no-one better)

First 76 Tests, 4359 runs @ 36.63, 13 hundreds, 329 wkts @ 26.28, 25 x 5 wkts

 

[Coronis]

Surely you rate Sutcliffe as better than Barrington?

Actually iirc he doesn’t.

Bill Bowes (for clarity a teammate of Sutcliffe, but one of Hutton too): "He [Sutcliffe] was the first to admit that he had not the same ability as Jack Hobbs, Wally Hammond, or Sir Len Hutton, but he had concentration and the will to harness his ability. As a result he was England’s most successful batsman of all time."

Checks out. Sutcliffe on average would last 27.1 overs - second highest ever behind Bradman (27.2).

Due to timeless tests, as well as much faster over rates it makes sense that most of these older bats have such lower SRs. It also makes sense pre-WWI having much higher SRs, with the worst quality pitches then - it had to be hit out or get out. I wonder which rules we’d play under.

 

[capt_Luffy]

You have to be joking. Botham was an ATG for at least 3/4 of his career. It was just the last 25 Tests or so that he was mediocre (he should have retired but Eng kept picking him because there was still no-one better)

First 76 Tests, 4359 runs @ 36.63, 13 hundreds, 329 wkts @ 26.28, 25 x 5 wkts

From 1982 onwards, batting average 28.8, bowling average 36.5

 

[ataraxia]

You have to be joking. Botham was an ATG for at least 3/4 of his career. It was just the last 25 Tests or so that he was mediocre (he should have retired but Eng kept picking him because there was still no-one better)

First 76 Tests, 4359 runs @ 36.63, 13 hundreds, 329 wkts @ 26.28, 25 x 5 wkts

Yeah I must admit I do underrate Botham significantly. He hasn't the longevity but he's nevertheless a discount Goddard.

 

[Coronis]

From 1982 onwards, batting average 28.8, bowling average 36.5

Well he played 102 matches. So lets try thirds.

First 3rd 77-81
1549 @ 32.27 6 tons 166 @ 21.15 14 5’fers

(he hit a run of bad form with the bat - no coincidence due to two series vs the Windies - 9 matches previously he averaged 40)

Second 3rd 81-84
2359 @ 41.38 7 tons 121 @ 32.52 7 5’fers

Far from the bowler he once was, but still quite serviceable and a quality bat.

Final 3rd 84-92
1292 @ 25.84 1 ton 96 @ 35.73 6 5’fers

Big drop off. Still bowling a ton but very expensive. Batting is gone.

 

[Coronis]

Sorry @OverratedSanity hit post by mistake and had to edit lol

I feel a good time for him to retire would’ve been post 1986/87 Ashes.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Well he played 102 matches. So lets try thirds.

First 3rd 77-81
1549 @ 32.27 6 tons 166 @ 21.15 14 5’fers

(he hit a run of bad form with the bat - no coincidence due to two series vs the Windies - 9 matches previously he averaged 40)

Second 3rd 81-84
2359 @ 41.38 7 tons 121 @ 32.52 7 5’fers

Far from the bowler he once was, but still quite serviceable and a quality bat.

Final 3rd 84-92
1292 @ 25.84 1 ton 96 @ 35.73 6 5’fers

Big drop off. Still bowling a ton but very expensive. Batting is gone.

So like, I was pretty on point especially with his bowling?? World Class in the 1/3 but decent for the rest.

 

[Qlder]

So like, I was pretty on point especially with his bowling?? World Class in the 1/3 but decent for the rest.

How is his 2nd 34 tests not also world class, averaging 41 with bat and 32 with ball with 3.6 wpm

 

[capt_Luffy]

How is his 2nd 34 tests not also world class, averaging 41 with bat and 32 with ball with 3.6 wpm

He was quite good with the bat but World Class with the ball is a stretch. As a bowling allrounder, he was only a decent bowler after his first 1/3 of career.

 

[Qlder]

He was quite good with the bat but World Class with the ball is a stretch. As a bowling allrounder, he was only a decent bowler after his first 1/3 of career.

I didn't say world class with the ball in his 2nd 34 tests. He was a world class batting allrounder ave 41 with bat and 3.6 wpm during that period (don't know why you think he was ever a bowling allrounder)

 

[capt_Luffy]

I didn't say world class with the ball. He was a world class batting allrounder batting Ave 41 with 3.6 wpm (don't know why you think he was ever a bowling allrounder)

Because he was?? Now don't say actually he was a batting allrounder; he was better than his average suggests, but still averages 1 run more than Shaun Pollock....

 

[bagapath]

nah... in the history of the game one guy scored 10+ centuries and took 10+ five wicket hauls... only one guy..
that is Botham... 14 centuries and 27 five fers...

 

[Coronis]

nah... in the history of the game one guy scored 10+ centuries and took 10+ five wicket hauls... only one guy..
that is Botham... 14 centuries and 27 five fers...

That is pretty crazy. Next closest in each category are Sobers (26/6) and Kapil (8/23)

Of current players Ashwin and Shakib need 5 more tons, and Stokes needs 6 more 5’fers.

 

[Qlder]

nah... in the history of the game one guy scored 10+ centuries and took 10+ five wicket hauls... only one guy..
that is Botham... 14 centuries and 27 five fers...

Botham is also the only player to get a hundred and a 5'fer in the same match an incredible 5 times

Sobers 2, Kallis 2, Jadeja 2, Imran 1, Miller 1

 

[Red]

This is the thing with guys like Botham. Looking at raw stats is a bit misleading. And his career had a weird trajectory.

Throw Botham in his pomp into one of our mythical contests and it’s highly likely he’ll rise to the occasion and score a very quick ton and take a 5fer. Against elite opposition.

 

[Coronis]

This is the thing with guys like Botham. Looking at raw stats is a bit misleading. And his career had a weird trajectory.

Throw Botham in his pomp into one of our mythical contests and it’s highly likely he’ll rise to the occasion and score a very quick ton and take a 5fer. Against elite opposition.

The question of course being, do we get him in his pomp or not.

 

[Qlder]

The question of course being, do we get him in his pomp or not.

Why would you not? The whole ATG team is a hypothetical so why not pick players from their prime.

Viv Richards is another who had a serious decline from playing too long. Of course you would have the peak 70's early 80's Viv who was a God at #3 averaging an aggressive 60 odd (but people who never saw him bat him #5 because he "only" averaged 50 overall lol)

 

[TheJediBrah]

Why would you not? The whole ATG team is a hypothetical so why not pick players from their prime.

Viv Richards is another who had a serious decline from playing too long. Of course you would have the peak 70's early 80's Viv who was a God at #3 (but people who never saw him bat him #5 because he "only" averaged 50 overall lol)

You have to draw a line somewhere though otherwise Ryan Harris is playing in the Aus ATG XI. And Mitch Johnson is ahead of McGrath and Hadlee