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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

CricketFan90s

State Vice-Captain
Modern All Time XI of England (1975-2024) - 50 Years
1) Graham Gooch (c)
2) Alastair Cook
3) David Gower
4) Kevin Pietersen
5) Graham Thorpe
6) Alec Stewart +
7) Ian Botham
8) Andrew Flintoff
9) Graeme Swann
10) Stuart Broad
11) James Anderson
 

CricketFan90s

State Vice-Captain
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CricketFan90s

State Vice-Captain
I would have Root for Thorpe, Stokes for Flintoff, and Prior for Stewart.

Stokes would also be the captain.
I want a good 5th bowler in Flintoff compared to Stokes, Thorpe was a good batsmen of spin and was praised for playing murali effectively in Srilanka, Stewart for being able to face quality bowling.

Graham Thorpe
5th Position1995-20055278183373200*56.21729246.25101833947


 
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kyear2

International Coach
Top 20 Batsman
Bradman

Tendulkar
Sobers
Hobbs
Richards

Smith
Lara
Hutton

Gavaskar
Ponting
Hammond
Kallis
Chappell
Headley
Border

Sangakkara
Sutcliffe
Pollock
Waugh
Dravid


Top 16 bowlers
Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee

Steyn
Warne
Muralitharan
Ambrose

Imran
Donald
Lillee
O'Reilly

Wasim
Garner
Trueman
Holding
Davidson


Top 12 Slip fielders
Hammond
Simpson
Sobers
Chappell
Taylor
Waugh
Ponting
Richardson
Hooper
Kallis
Lloyd
Dravid



Top 10 all rounders
Sobers
Imran
Kallis
Gilchrist
Miller
Botham
Hadlee
Pollock
Jadeja
Kapil



Top 8 Captains
Benaud
Ranatunga
Taylor
Flemming

Worrell
Jardine
Lloyd
Imran

All Time XI & Squad

Sir John Hobbs
Barry Richards^
Sir Donald Bradman*
Sir. I. V. A. Richards^
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers^(5)
Adam Gilchrist +
Malcolm Marshall (1)
Shane Warne (4)
Dale Steyn (3)
Glenn McGrath (2)

Sir Leonard Hutton
Brian Lara
Sir Richard Hadlee
Muttiah Muralitharan

Injured reserves
Imran Khan
Jacques Kallis
Allan Knott


Top 25 cricketers of All Time

Tier 1
Bradman / Sobers / Marshall / Hobbs / Hadlee / McGrath / Tendulkar / Richards

Tier 2
Warne / Imran / Steyn / Muralitharan / Smith / Lara / Hammond / Kallis / Hutton / Gilchrist / Ambrose / Gavaskar / O'Reilly / Ponting / Wasim / Chappell / Headley
 

ataraxia

International Coach
Top 20 Batsman
Bradman

Tendulkar
Sobers
Hobbs
Richards

Smith
Lara
Hutton

Gavaskar
Ponting
Hammond
Kallis
Chappell
Headley
Border

Sangakkara
Sutcliffe
Pollock
Waugh
Dravid


Top 16 bowlers
Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee

Steyn
Warne
Muralitharan
Ambrose

Imran
Donald
Lillee
O'Reilly

Wasim
Garner
Trueman
Holding
Davidson


Top 12 Slip fielders
Hammond
Simpson
Sobers
Chappell
Taylor
Waugh
Ponting
Richardson
Hooper
Kallis
Lloyd
Dravid



Top 10 all rounders
Sobers
Imran
Kallis
Gilchrist
Miller
Botham
Hadlee
Pollock
Jadeja
Kapil



Top 8 Captains
Benaud
Ranatunga
Taylor
Flemming

Worrell
Jardine
Lloyd
Imran

All Time XI & Squad

Sir John Hobbs
Barry Richards^
Sir Donald Bradman*
Sir. I. V. A. Richards^
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers^(5)
Adam Gilchrist +
Malcolm Marshall (1)
Shane Warne (4)
Dale Steyn (3)
Glenn McGrath (2)

Sir Leonard Hutton
Brian Lara
Sir Richard Hadlee
Muttiah Muralitharan

Injured reserves
Imran Khan
Jacques Kallis
Allan Knott


Top 25 cricketers of All Time

Tier 1
Bradman / Sobers / Marshall / Hobbs / Hadlee / McGrath / Tendulkar / Richards

Tier 2
Warne / Imran / Steyn / Muralitharan / Smith / Lara / Hammond / Kallis / Hutton / Gilchrist / Ambrose / Gavaskar / O'Reilly / Ponting / Wasim / Chappell / Headley
I know you don't like Imran man but is that really justification for injuring him out of the side?
 

kyear2

International Coach
I know you don't like Imran man but is that really justification for injuring him out of the side?
Make the argument to convince me.

100% straight up.

Yes Imran potentially makes the team balance perfect (similar to Hammond really), but think Steyn (similar to Sachin) is comfortably the better bowler.

Tell me why I'm wrong.
 

ataraxia

International Coach
Make the argument to convince me.

100% straight up.

Yes Imran potentially makes the team balance perfect (similar to Hammond really), but think Steyn (similar to Sachin) is comfortably the better bowler.

Tell me why I'm wrong.
Two points:
  • it requires a very precise methodology of rating bowlers so as to balance consideration of peak (a criterion by which Imran is easily superior to Steyn) and consideration of longevity (a criterion by which Imran is easily superior to Steyn) in such a manner that Steyn is better than Imran. I don't mean to say it's impossible or illogical to think so, by any means, but I don't believe that the ~80% of CW who rate Steyn above Imran are so homogenous in their rating of players (though I acknowledge alleged ball-tampering / favourable home umpiring – both of which, I must say, didn't exactly seem to help any of Imran's colleagues – weighting of strike rate v. economy, and one's opinion of a well-balanced attack are complicating factors).
  • if you do think Steyn > Imran as a bowler, you must think that the difference between them is sizeable because at the absolute minimum the batting advantage Imran has over Steyn is 8 runs an innings and 16 runs a match, which is coincidentally precisely what Simpson's slipping advantage was calculated to be. While individual batters are less important than individual bowlers and therefore secondary disciplines are less important for bowlers, on the other hand that Simpson calculation did have at its head the unlikely (and proven wrong) assumption that Simpson was a perfect catcher.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Two points:
  • it requires a very precise methodology of rating bowlers so as to balance consideration of peak (a criterion by which Imran is easily superior to Steyn) and consideration of longevity (a criterion by which Imran is easily superior to Steyn) in such a manner that Steyn is better than Imran. I don't mean to say it's impossible or illogical to think so, by any means, but I don't believe that the ~80% of CW who rate Steyn above Imran are so homogenous in their rating of players (though I acknowledge alleged ball-tampering / favourable home umpiring – both of which, I must say, didn't exactly seem to help any of Imran's colleagues – weighting of strike rate v. economy, and one's opinion of a well-balanced attack are complicating factors).
  • if you do think Steyn > Imran as a bowler, you must think that the difference between them is sizeable because at the absolute minimum the batting advantage Imran has over Steyn is 8 runs an innings and 16 runs a match, which is coincidentally precisely what Simpson's slipping advantage was calculated to be. While individual batters are less important than individual bowlers and therefore secondary disciplines are less important for bowlers, on the other hand that Simpson calculation did have at its head the unlikely (and proven wrong) assumption that Simpson was a perfect catcher.
Well done and I want to respond, not counter mind you... But it's 1 am and I want to to think through it properly.

I do believe there was the home ball tampering / umpiring, I also accept the point that it didn't help his teammates to the extent. But two points, how good would have he have been without them and his team mates, and quite frankly very few ever, were as good as him.

The reason I look so hard at his away record is because I'm not sure how much of his home record can be trusted.

As you also referenced, over 70% of the forum, including one of Imran's most fervent defenders, do believe Steyn was the better bowler. In such a contest or for such a prestigious honor, should't the better bowler get the benefit of the doubt? Especially in a team with literally the best batsmen, and best keepers batsman ever.

Yes the batting matters, nor even disputing that, but if you're facing the best of the best, shouldn't you go with your best bowlers if there's a clear distinction?

Of the three candidates for the spot.

If we're rating them by batting
Imran
Hadlee
Steyn

By bowling though
Hadlee
Steyn
Imran

No disrespect, no hate. Don't think the take is that behind the pale either.
 

CricketFan90s

State Vice-Captain
Top 20 Batsman
Bradman

Tendulkar
Sobers
Hobbs
Richards

Smith
Lara
Hutton

Gavaskar
Ponting
Hammond
Kallis
Chappell
Headley
Border

Sangakkara
Sutcliffe
Pollock
Waugh
Dravid


Top 16 bowlers
Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee

Steyn
Warne
Muralitharan
Ambrose

Imran
Donald
Lillee
O'Reilly

Wasim
Garner
Trueman
Holding
Davidson


Top 12 Slip fielders
Hammond
Simpson
Sobers
Chappell
Taylor
Waugh
Ponting
Richardson
Hooper
Kallis
Lloyd
Dravid



Top 10 all rounders
Sobers
Imran
Kallis
Gilchrist
Miller
Botham
Hadlee
Pollock
Jadeja
Kapil



Top 8 Captains
Benaud
Ranatunga
Taylor
Flemming

Worrell
Jardine
Lloyd
Imran

All Time XI & Squad

Sir John Hobbs
Barry Richards^
Sir Donald Bradman*
Sir. I. V. A. Richards^
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers^(5)
Adam Gilchrist +
Malcolm Marshall (1)
Shane Warne (4)
Dale Steyn (3)
Glenn McGrath (2)

Sir Leonard Hutton
Brian Lara
Sir Richard Hadlee
Muttiah Muralitharan

Injured reserves
Imran Khan
Jacques Kallis
Allan Knott


Top 25 cricketers of All Time

Tier 1
Bradman / Sobers / Marshall / Hobbs / Hadlee / McGrath / Tendulkar / Richards

Tier 2
Warne / Imran / Steyn / Muralitharan / Smith / Lara / Hammond / Kallis / Hutton / Gilchrist / Ambrose / Gavaskar / O'Reilly / Ponting / Wasim / Chappell / Headley
Second Team Which can Beat Your Team
1) Leonard Hutton
2) Sunil Gavaskar
3) Ricky Ponting
4) Jacques Kallis
5) Brian Lara
6) Kumar Sangakkara +
7) Keith Miller
8) Imran Khan (c)
9) Richard Hadlee
10) Curtly Ambrose
11) Muttiah Muralitharan
 

Victor Ian

International Coach
Let's not pretend Steyn was not the beneficiary of ball tampering. It's just than in his day ball tampering was done by a designated person who was not the bowler. Didn't a certain player come up to front tampering charges a few times and always get off scott free (not banned) to continue the practice?
 

TheJediBrah

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Let's not pretend Steyn was not the beneficiary of ball tampering. It's just than in his day ball tampering was done by a designated person who was not the bowler. Didn't a certain player come up to front tampering charges a few times and always get off scott free (not banned) to continue the practice?
Usually was banned for a match at a time, when caught, which was rare
 

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