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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Northerner

School Boy/Girl Captain
But Taylor was much better than Stephen Fleming as were 5 or 6 other batsmen.
Its about opinions, i think Fleming was a bit better than Taylor, agreed he didnt convert enough of hid 50s in to centuries. however imo he had the edge over Ross, not sure i can name 5 better batsmen than Fleming though, Bert Sutcliffe is a possibility but i never saw him play, 1966 is my start off point,
 

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
Its about opinions, i think Fleming was a bit better than Taylor, agreed he didnt convert enough of hid 50s in to centuries. however imo he had the edge over Ross, not sure i can name 5 better batsmen than Fleming though, Bert Sutcliffe is a possibility but i never saw him play, 1966 is my start off point,
In my opinion

(Taylor)
Martin Donnelly
Bert Sutcliffe
Stewie Dempster
Andrew Jones
John F Reid
Mark Richardson

Daryl Mitchell
Devon Conway of current players

(edited)
 
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SeamUp

International Coach
Rhodesia/Zimbabwe

Anyone missing to pick from their best players?

Late 50/60s/70s
Ray Gripper
David Lewis
Brian Davison
Robert Ullyett
Tony Pithey
Colin Bland
Stuart Robertson (wk)
Howie Gardiner (wk)
Peter Swart
Jackie du Preez
Richie Kaschula
Joe Partridge
Goofy Lawrence

Some 70s & then in 80s (got the taste of 1-dayers or left Zim for South Africa/England)
Jack Heron
Robert Bentley
Trevor Penney
Andy Pycroft
Dave Houghton (wk)
Graeme Hick
Kevin Curran
Duncan Fletcher
Paddy Clift
Peter Rawson
John Traicos
James Carse
Vince Hogg

*Want to add Neal Radford but was only born in Northern Rhodesia/Zambia.

90s (when Zim made their mark?)
Grant Flower
Alistair Campbell
Murray Goodwin
Neil Johnson
Andy Flower (wk)
Stuart Carlisle
Guy Whittall
Heath Streak
Eddo Brandes
Paul Strang
Henry Olonga
Pommie Mbangwa
Bryan Strang

Beyond the 'great side'
Craig Ervine
Hamilton Masakadza
Gary Ballance
Brendan Taylor
Tatenda Taibu (wk)
Sean Williams
Sikander Raza
Sean Ervine
Elton Chigumbura
Andy Blignaut
Ray Price
Graeme Cremer
Kyle Jarvis
Blessing Muzarabani
 

howitzer

State Captain
In my opinion

(Taylor)
Bert Sutcliffe
Stewie Dempster
Andrew Jones
John F Reid
Mark Richardson

Daryl Mitchell
Devon Conway of current players
I have Reid's average as artificially high. He managed to avoid WI for a start. His record against Pakistan looks good but, digging deeper he only played Imran once, scoring 0 and 19, with the duck being taken by Imran himself. He played 2 Tests against early Wasim, and while there was a quality innings in one of them he was dismissed cheaply twice in the other. He didn't play either in his 3 Tests in Pakistan. Essentially apart from one innings he was a bullier of weak attacks. He was a very ersatz version of Voges, and Voges at least had more oppotunities to get dragged down by good attacks too. You vastly overrate Reid. I'm not convinced on Dempster's pretty average either. Of those I would have Taylor and Sutcliffe clearly ahead and Jones roughly equal. The rest just don't have the longevity, and Reid is frankly ridiculous.
 

howitzer

State Captain
Rhodesia/Zimbabwe

Anyone missing to pick from their best players?

Late 50/60s/70s
Ray Gripper
David Lewis
Brian Davison
Robert Ullyett
Tony Pithey
Colin Bland
Stuart Robertson (wk)
Howie Gardiner (wk)
Peter Swart
Jackie du Preez
Richie Kaschula
Joe Partridge
Goofy Lawrence

Some 70s & then in 80s (got the taste of 1-dayers or left Zim for South Africa/England)
Jack Heron
Robert Bentley
Trevor Penney
Andy Pycroft
Dave Houghton (wk)
Graeme Hick
Kevin Curran
Duncan Fletcher
Paddy Clift
Peter Rawson
John Traicos
James Carse
Vince Hogg

*Want to add Neal Radford but was only born in Northern Rhodesia/Zambia.

90s (when Zim made their mark?)
Grant Flower
Alistair Campbell
Murray Goodwin
Neil Johnson
Andy Flower (wk)
Stuart Carlisle
Guy Whittall
Heath Streak
Eddo Brandes
Paul Strang
Henry Olonga
Pommie Mbangwa
Bryan Strang

Beyond the 'great side'
Craig Ervine
Hamilton Masakadza
Gary Ballance
Brendan Taylor
Tatenda Taibu (wk)
Sean Williams
Sikander Raza
Sean Ervine
Elton Chigumbura
Andy Blignaut
Ray Price
Graeme Cremer
Kyle Jarvis
Blessing Muzarabani
Everton Matambanadzo was a pretty decent LOI quick and there is a school out there who think Wayne James should have gloved for ZIM with Flower as a specialist bat but, other than that, not much. Tom Curran was born there though and I guess you could say they have at least some claim on the England born Sam too.

Edit: Thought Tom was born in Zimbabwe. Clearly not. The Currans travelled a lot back then.
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
I have Reid's average as artificially high. He managed to avoid WI for a start. His record against Pakistan looks good but, digging deeper he only played Imran once, scoring 0 and 19, with the duck being taken by Imran himself. He played 2 Tests against early Wasim, and while there was a quality innings in one of them he was dismissed cheaply twice in the other. He didn't play either in his 3 Tests in Pakistan. Essentially apart from one innings he was a bullier of weak attacks. He was a very ersatz version of Voges, and Voges at least had more oppotunities to get dragged down by good attacks too. You vastly overrate Reid. I'm not convinced on Dempster's pretty average either. Of those I would have Taylor and Sutcliffe clearly ahead and Jones roughly equal. The rest just don't have the longevity, and Reid is frankly ridiculous.
What about Martin Donnelly?? He was pretty highly rated in his time.
 

howitzer

State Captain
At least better than all those bar perhaps Taylor and Sutcliffe. Can't really rate him compared to those due to lack of longevity but he was clearly very good.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Everton Matambanadzo was a pretty decent LOI quick and there is a school out there who think Wayne James should have gloved for ZIM with Flower as a specialist bat but, other than that, not much. Tom Curran was born there though and I guess you could say they have at least some claim on the England born Sam too.

Edit: Thought Tom was born in Zimbabwe. Clearly not. The Currans travelled a lot back then.
It's not the worst idea re: James. Would come at Carlisle's expense which is fine.

Who was that BA batting prodigy. Might even have been the first BA to play for Zim. That sadly passed away young. Big things were expected even if stats might have not backed it up.
 
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howitzer

State Captain
It's not the worst idea re: James. Would come at Carlisle's expense which is fine.
Or Mark Dekker who was absolutely awful.

Who was that BA batting prodigy. Might even have been the first BA to play for Zim. That sadly passed away young. Big things were expected even if stats might have not backed it up.
There was Trevor Madondo who died from malaria. Definitely wasn't the first BA to play for ZIM though, that was Olonga.

Kevin Arnott, David Brain and Colin de Grandhomme are other Zimbabwean born players you missed.
 

Northerner

School Boy/Girl Captain
In my opinion

(Taylor)
Martin Donnelly
Bert Sutcliffe
Stewie Dempster
Andrew Jones
John F Reid
Mark Richardson

Daryl Mitchell
Devon Conway of current players

(edited)
I have John F Reid in my team, i did say Sutcliffe is a possible but never saw him play, Richardson is an Opener in my book , i prefer John Wright to him, Mitchell and Conway given time may break in to the team, but not yet, Donnelly and Dempster, doubtful, its a fun discussion but i will stick with my team, i give Fleming the edge over Andrew Jones.
 

Northerner

School Boy/Girl Captain
Rhodesia/Zimbabwe

Anyone missing to pick from their best players?

Late 50/60s/70s
Ray Gripper
David Lewis
Brian Davison
Robert Ullyett
Tony Pithey
Colin Bland
Stuart Robertson (wk)
Howie Gardiner (wk)
Peter Swart
Jackie du Preez
Richie Kaschula
Joe Partridge
Goofy Lawrence

Some 70s & then in 80s (got the taste of 1-dayers or left Zim for South Africa/England)
Jack Heron
Robert Bentley
Trevor Penney
Andy Pycroft
Dave Houghton (wk)
Graeme Hick
Kevin Curran
Duncan Fletcher
Paddy Clift
Peter Rawson
John Traicos
James Carse
Vince Hogg

*Want to add Neal Radford but was only born in Northern Rhodesia/Zambia.

90s (when Zim made their mark?)
Grant Flower
Alistair Campbell
Murray Goodwin
Neil Johnson
Andy Flower (wk)
Stuart Carlisle
Guy Whittall
Heath Streak
Eddo Brandes
Paul Strang
Henry Olonga
Pommie Mbangwa
Bryan Strang

Beyond the 'great side'
Craig Ervine
Hamilton Masakadza
Gary Ballance
Brendan Taylor
Tatenda Taibu (wk)
Sean Williams
Sikander Raza
Sean Ervine
Elton Chigumbura
Andy Blignaut
Ray Price
Graeme Cremer
Kyle Jarvis
Blessing Muzarabani
Are Benkenstein and Elworthy ex Zimbabweans ?
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Turner
Fleming/Richardson
Williamson
Crowe
Taylor
Watling
Cairns
Hadlee
Vettori
Bond
Southee/Boult/Cowie/Wagner

Can’t decide where there’s multiples
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Are Benkenstein and Elworthy ex Zimbabweans ?
I was going more they actually represented Zimbabwean/Rhodesian cricket than born in Zimbabwe.

Maybe a Saffer one for born in Zim/Zambia

Norman Featherstone
Frederick Goldstein
Kenny Jackson
Bruce Roberts
Dale Benkenstein
Stephen Bruce
Ivor Foulkes
Hugh Page
Steve Elworthy
Paul Harris
Neal Radford

Sibley McAdam
Junior Dala
Gary Gilder
 

Flametree

International 12th Man
With 31 wickets at 26, Tinashe Panyangara is well worth a shout for a Zimbabwe all-time test second xi.

I thought Kevin Arnott might have been one who could have been a contender if Zimbabwe had got test status a bit earlier, but his first class average of 30 suggests his test average of 43 might have come down a bit if he'd played more...
 
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