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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
3 day test in England would be pretty weird if true. Because from memory, games played in Australia at that time were timeless, so could go on even longer than 5 days.
English tests were three (six hour) days up until the 26 Ashes, henceforth (1930) Ashes tests were four days, and vs South Africa from 1935. The last three day series played in England was against NZ in '49. It's Australia who were the aberration, all other countries used limited time matches, South Africa generally 4 x 5 or 5.5 hour days and West Indies 4 x 5.5 or 5 x 5.
 

trundler

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Greenidge
Morris
Harvey
Peter May
McCabe
VVS
Knott
Snow
Roberts
Hall
Prasanna

My attempt at an XI where the top 7 average<50 and the bowlers average over 25 with the spinner averaging over 30.
 
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kyear2

International Coach
Hadlee takes more WPM than Mcgrath, and does so faster considering his era. I don't see a reason to believe Mcgrath would take more WPM in the same team. Call it even for the sake of argument, although this is doing a bit of a disservice to Hadlees vastly superior record in this regard.

Considering his era, Mcgrath takes wickets cheaper. I'd say the difference between them would be that Mcgrath would go at a marginally better economy rate (mostly due to the extra bounce), which would mean marginally cheaper wickets.

The difference in average would be small. Half of Mcgraths career was the 90s, similar enough to Hadlees time. Mcgraths 2000 performances were impressive, but even if you think 2000s Mcgrath would average around 18 in Hadlees era, or that Hadlee would average late 20s in the 2000s (both of which are implausible IMO), this is a 2 rpw difference between the two across career.

Assuming 4wpm in an ATG team, this is an 8 run advantage per game. Probably a lot less, because this calculation is extremely generous to Mcgrath in every way.

In contrast, Hadlees batting would conservatively add an extra 30 runs to the team, factoring in his own runs and partnerships (think of the value add from avoiding a tail collapse when there is a rampaging Sobers for example). This is a huge swing.

Put another way, the average margin of victory between two top teams might be 150. Hadlees extra batting would win one in every 5 matches on average. It's hard to imagine how the advantage provided by Mcgraths bowling would be comparable.

I would hesitate to make this type of comparison with confidence between any other two players. But these two are so similar in style and quality, and it's hard to see them performing very differently with the ball. One of them is one of the best bats going, and one is close to the worst. I can't see a reason to pick Mcgrath.
Your reasoning is sound. I also belive a team should be balanced.

I choose McGrath for the following reasons.

1. His extra bounce with makes him the perfect compliment to the skiddy Marshall. Arguably the best opening combo in cricket was Marshall and Garner, and part of that was because they complimented each other so well with the height and bounce of Big Bird. Even in isolation I love the extra bounce that McGrath bough to the party. It's not always just about stats.

2. Well rounded career. His record like MM was flawless and he proved his brilliance vs everyone and everywhere.

3. For all of then great talent that Austalia had, I believe McGrath was the key. When he wasn't there, they were a different team, and not for the better

4. I have seen Pidge bowl on some flat pitches and still do his thing. As with his partner it didn't seem to matter what he was bowling on.

Maco and Warne were decent bats who because if the strong teams they played for wern't always needed to stick it out with the bat and to be honest didn't always give it their all.

I would take my chances with Marshall, Warne, Steyn and McGrath behind Sobers and Gilchrist. But Hadlee is a worthy player and if replaces Glenn it wouldn't be the end of the world. I just prefer my attack.
 

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Greenidge
Morris
Harvey
Peter May
McCabe
VVS
Knott
Snow
Roberts
Prasanna

My attempt at an XI where the top 7 average<50 and the bowlers average over 25 with the spinner averaging over 30.
Might be better if it had more than ten players in it. Add Hall or Willis.
 
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AndrewB

International Vice-Captain
English tests were three (six hour) days up until the 26 Ashes, henceforth (1930) Ashes tests were four days, and vs South Africa from 1935. The last three day series played in England was against NZ in '49. It's Australia who were the aberration, all other countries used limited time matches, South Africa generally 4 x 5 or 5.5 hour days and West Indies 4 x 5.5 or 5 x 5.
The 1935 Tests were still 3-day; it was the 1947 series against SA that had 4-day Tests. Then the 1948 Ashes series was 5-day Tests, the 1949 series against NZ was 3-day, and all series after that were 5-day (except the final Tests of the 1972 and 1975 Ashes were 6-day).

Also, the final (Oval) Tests in Ashes series in 1926, 1930, 1934 and 1938 were timeless (although only the 1930 match went beyond the 4th day), because the series in each case was undecided (or possibly in the first three cases because it was level).
 

Bolo

State Captain
Your reasoning is sound. I also belive a team should be balanced.

I choose McGrath for the following reasons.

1. His extra bounce with makes him the perfect compliment to the skiddy Marshall. Arguably the best opening combo in cricket was Marshall and Garner, and part of that was because they complimented each other so well with the height and bounce of Big Bird. Even in isolation I love the extra bounce that McGrath bough to the party. It's not always just about stats.

2. Well rounded career. His record like MM was flawless and he proved his brilliance vs everyone and everywhere.

3. For all of then great talent that Austalia had, I believe McGrath was the key. When he wasn't there, they were a different team, and not for the better

4. I have seen Pidge bowl on some flat pitches and still do his thing. As with his partner it didn't seem to matter what he was bowling on.

Maco and Warne were decent bats who because if the strong teams they played for wern't always needed to stick it out with the bat and to be honest didn't always give it their all.

I would take my chances with Marshall, Warne, Steyn and McGrath behind Sobers and Gilchrist. But Hadlee is a worthy player and if replaces Glenn it wouldn't be the end of the world. I just prefer my attack.
I'm a big fan of the extra bounce, which is why I mentioned it specifically despite both bowlers having advantages. The advantage it would provide would chiefly be being difficult to score off.

There would be a bit more variety in Mcgrath/Marshall than Hadlee/Marshall. Not much though- they are very similar, and Hadlee had arguably more variety to counterbalance the bounce.

Hadlee and Mcgrath both had extremely consistent records. Mcgrath probably a little more so in average when era is factored in. Hadlee distinctly more so in SR and WPM, and more so when factoring era in. The slowest he struck against any country or in any country owas 60.

It's hard to pick conditions in which either of them would be better. I would have fancied Mcgrath to outperform in AUS, and Hadlee in England due to the difference in style. This very much didn't happen though, with Hadlee performing amazingly in AUS, and a bit below par in England, and Mcgrath the reverse. Different challenges by era obviously come into it, but it's still really difficult to back either on the basis of conditions.

I put Mcgrath ahead as a bowler by the tiniest of margins, but I don't really see him wining any extra matches with the ball, leave alone turning one in five losses into a win as Hadlees batting would. There has got to be some reason to believe he would outweigh this advantage in terms of ability to impact matches or his selection is simply wrong.
 

Pap Finn Keighl

International Debutant
I consider Mcgrath is worth of a batsman averaging 55
And
Hadlee worth of a batsman averaging 75

Bowling alone its hard to separate, still Hadlee narrowly better for me.
 

kyear2

International Coach
I'm a big fan of the extra bounce, which is why I mentioned it specifically despite both bowlers having advantages. The advantage it would provide would chiefly be being difficult to score off.

There would be a bit more variety in Mcgrath/Marshall than Hadlee/Marshall. Not much though- they are very similar, and Hadlee had arguably more variety to counterbalance the bounce.

Hadlee and Mcgrath both had extremely consistent records. Mcgrath probably a little more so in average when era is factored in. Hadlee distinctly more so in SR and WPM, and more so when factoring era in. The slowest he struck against any country or in any country owas 60.

It's hard to pick conditions in which either of them would be better. I would have fancied Mcgrath to outperform in AUS, and Hadlee in England due to the difference in style. This very much didn't happen though, with Hadlee performing amazingly in AUS, and a bit below par in England, and Mcgrath the reverse. Different challenges by era obviously come into it, but it's still really difficult to back either on the basis of conditions.

I put Mcgrath ahead as a bowler by the tiniest of margins, but I don't really see him wining any extra matches with the ball, leave alone turning one in five losses into a win as Hadlees batting would. There has got to be some reason to believe he would outweigh this advantage in terms of ability to impact matches or his selection is simply wrong.
You are looking at this as single swap in a vacuum. McGrath is my no. 11 he doesn't need to know how to bat. I have arguably the 2nd greatest batsman ever at 6 in the role of all rounder (So not loosing any batting there), the greatest ever wicketkeeper batsman at 7. The 3 bowlers above him can also bat. Marshall and Warne were borderline all rounders and Steyn can also bat. I can afford for my no.11 to be there purely as a bowler.

As much As I value a great cordon, every batsman doesn't have to be a great slip catcher. Only need 3.
 

ankitj

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Greenidge
Morris
Harvey
Peter May
McCabe
VVS
Knott
Snow
Roberts
Hall
Prasanna

My attempt at an XI where the top 7 average<50 and the bowlers average over 25 with the spinner averaging over 30.
That's an ATVG side. You should try to find place for Worrell in there. And Kanhai too.
 

Bolo

State Captain
You are looking at this as single swap in a vacuum. McGrath is my no. 11 he doesn't need to know how to bat. I have arguably the 2nd greatest batsman ever at 6 in the role of all rounder (So not loosing any batting there), the greatest ever wicketkeeper batsman at 7. The 3 bowlers above him can also bat. Marshall and Warne were borderline all rounders and Steyn can also bat. I can afford for my no.11 to be there purely as a bowler.

As much As I value a great cordon, every batsman doesn't have to be a great slip catcher. Only need 3.
It isn't relevant to the form analysis I've presented whether Hadlee bats 8 or 11. And the strength of your top order isn't relevant either- you will need the runs against a team of similar strength. Either the analysis is flawed or it stands independently of the rest of your side.

Two things from your specific selections- with an aggressive lower middle, Hadlees batting would likely be more important than in a regular team.

Secondly, Hadlee-marshall-steyn is really similar. I'd prefer Mcgrath as a bowler by a long way in here, and feel he might offer something of a threat in addition to my analysis. I highly doubt it would top the benefits offered by the batting, and the attack is a little lacking in variety regardless of if Hadlee or Mcgrath plays, but the case for Mcgrath, but the case for Mcgrath is stronger than typically.
 

bagapath

International Captain
Greenidge
Morris
Harvey
Peter May
McCabe
VVS
Knott
Snow
Roberts
Hall
Prasanna

My attempt at an XI where the top 7 average<50 and the bowlers average over 25 with the spinner averaging over 30.
Boycott
Sehwag
Amla
Inzamam
M Jayawardene
MJ Clarke
Dhoni *+
M Johnson
Starc
Thompson
Qadir

Superb batsmen. Insane pace bowlers. Will be a fun team to watch through and through.
 

trundler

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How is Worrell not making even second XI?
Yeah ridiculously bad oversight on my part. In for VVS. He captains. Kanhsi in for May. McCabe can't go. He's the 5th bowler and uber talented batsman. Bowling is solid though.
 
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ankitj

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Harvey, McCabbe, Worrell and Kanhai are probably the 4 best middle order batsmen averaging under 50. There were quite a few claimants to openers' slots. Sehwag, Greenidge, Morris, Mitchell.
 

AndrewB

International Vice-Captain
Stanley Jackson is worth a mention - averaged 48 at a time when players like Trumper, Hill and Ranji were averaging about 40, and adds an extra bowling option. Of course, he'd be easier to judge if he'd been available to play outside England. (And you could argue that it's cheating to pick players from pre 1910 when scores were generally lower).
 

OverratedSanity

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Stanley Jackson is worth a mention - averaged 48 at a time when players like Trumper, Hill and Ranji were averaging about 40, and adds an extra bowling option. Of course, he'd be easier to judge if he'd been available to play outside England. (And you could argue that it's cheating to pick players from pre 1910 when scores were generally lower).
Only 20 tests though and his FC record is far less impressive.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Greenidge
Morris
Harvey
Peter May
McCabe
VVS
Knott
Snow
Roberts
Hall
Prasanna

My attempt at an XI where the top 7 average<50 and the bowlers average over 25 with the spinner averaging over 30.
Would take

Greenidge
Mitchell
Harvey
Kanhai
Worrell
Botham
Shakib
Kapil
Knott +
Roberts
Hall
 

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