The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Red]

Sobers record is pretty ****ing remarkable across the world against everyone, except (I've no idea why) against NZ. And he played quite a few tests (12) against them, but averaged only 23 against them (15 in NZ!)

For some clarity though, his avgs against everyone else were:

Aus 43 (46 in Aus)
Eng 60
India 83 (99 in India!)
89 against Pak

For mine, Sobers is still the second best batsman in the world, ahead of Sachin, Sunny, Hutton or anyone else. All round/bowling skills aside, he'd be my second picked batsman in any ATG side

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Based on what exactly? What do you know rhat absolutely no one else does?

Sobers thinks Gavaskar is the best since Bradman. Martin Crowe said its impossible to rate anyone bar bradman clearly ahead of Gavaskar. Sobers is the greatest cricketer ever, Crowe was one of the greatest cricket brain ever happened. "No one else" is a huge exaggeration

 

[Red]

Martin Crowe said its impossible to rate anyone bar bradman clearly ahead of Gavaskar.

You do realise what this means, don't you? That Gavaskar sits in a tier of guys who were absolutely elite. He's not necessarily "better" or "worse" than them.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

You do realise what this means, don't you? That Gavaskar sits in a tier of guys who were absolutely elite. He's not necessarily "better" or "worse" than them.

He selected Headley, Sobers, Gavaskar and Sachin as the top batsmen of their eras.. And it was impossible for him to select best of this 4.

 

[akilana]

I have read about his dislike and sometimes discomfort re short pitched fast bowling. It's been a while but don't recall the legside Not, but admittedly haven't been doing much reading the past few years.

To be honest though, and my rating of Hammond is influenced by the above. Every batsman, and that very much includes Bradman and off the top of my head, the possible exclusion of Sachin, has holes or weaknesses in their records or history.

Sobers batted at 6, Lara was a touch inconsistent and dubr fancy the express stuff, Viv had a comparatively short peak, Kallis rarely dominated / took over an attack or series, Hobbs level of pre war opposition can be questioned outside of Gregory, Bradman faced his share of minnows, didn't travel except to England, played primarily before the lbw rule change and some have mentioned mentioned that even the umpires were aware of who the main attraction was in the game. Pollock and Headley played very short careers and against limited opposition. And I could go on. No one was perfect (though struggling to recall shortcomings for Hutton and Sachin).

Say you don’t remember Kallis ever dominating a test series....but saying he rarely dominated isnt true.

For example, he hit 3 hundreds and 2 fifties against Ashes-winning England attack over 5 tests. He scored 3 hundreds and 1 fifty in 4 innings in a test series vs Pakistan in Pakistan to lead SA to series victory. When India was no 1, he made 3 hundreds including a double hundred over 3 tests. These are just a few examples.

 

[akilana]

Sobers record is pretty ****ing remarkable across the world against everyone, except (I've no idea why) against NZ. And he played quite a few tests (12) against them, but averaged only 23 against them (15 in NZ!)

For some clarity though, his avgs against everyone else were:

Aus 43 (46 in Aus)
Eng 60
India 83 (99 in India!)
89 against Pak

For mine, Sobers is still the second best batsman in the world, ahead of Sachin, Sunny, Hutton or anyone else. All round/bowling skills aside, he'd be my second picked batsman in any ATG side

How good were the Indian and Pakistan attacks?

 

[smash84]

How good were the Indian and Pakistan attacks?

Other than Fazal, quite minnowish.

 

[OverratedSanity]

How good were the Indian and Pakistan attacks?

Pretty good actually. Sobers dominated the spin quartet like so other batsman and Pakistan had Fazal and Khan Mohammad for a while. Both teams had meh batting lineups the bowling attacks were still good.

 

[smash84]

i thought khan mohammad might not have played Sobers, but apparently his series against the WI in 1958 was his last one.

 

[Bolo]

Sobers has a ton of holes in his record.

Htb of note, and had fairly easy home conditions.

It's hard to generalise about conditions and standards because he played for a long time and a lot changed, but he had it fairly easy. Soft era in general for cricket. England had a strong attack for the first half of his career. Nobody really had a top attack for the second half except RSA, who he didn't play.

Only really Truman and Tyson I can think of as top draw quicks. Remarkably low considering how long he played and against how many opponents.

 

[Starfighter]

Only really Truman and Tyson I can think of as top draw quicks. Remarkably low considering how long he played and against how many opponents.

Why does everyone forget the man who has the best average for any pace bowler over 100 wickets post war?

 

[trundler]

If you add World XI matches, Sobers' average jumps to over 50 against Australia. These matches were marketed as tests and considered as such at the time.

 

[Starfighter]

These matches were marketed as tests and considered as such at the time.

AFAIK only the England matches were ever recorded as tests.

 

[Bolo]

Why does everyone forget the man who has the best average for any pace bowler over 100 wickets post war?

Fair play. I associate Davidson with an earlier era, but it's just wrong.

Anyway, late 60s and early 70s were really soft without factoring RSA in.

 

[kyear2]

Sobers has a ton of holes in his record.

Htb of note, and had fairly easy home conditions.

It's hard to generalise about conditions and standards because he played for a long time and a lot changed, but he had it fairly easy. Soft era in general for cricket. England had a strong attack for the first half of his career. Nobody really had a top attack for the second half except RSA, who he didn't play.

Only really Truman and Tyson I can think of as top draw quicks. Remarkably low considering how long he played and against how many opponents.

Ok. Off the top of my head, let's look at some of the bowlers Sir Garry faced.
Truman, Tyson, Snow, Willis, Underwood, Benaud, Davidson, Indian quartet, Fazal, Lillee (ROW XI)

Of the top tier ATG batsmen only Chappell, Viv, Lara, Sachin, Border, possibly Hutton and if you rate Gavaskar and Kallis faced better. And Gavaskar played on flatter home decks than anyone, and his record vs W.I was boosted a bit because of WSC.

In comparrison, who are the great bowlers that Bradman faced, Larwood (?), Verify. Pre LBW rules, some insanely flat tracks as well, just as many minnows to face.

Who are the great bowlers that kholi is facing today. Steyn and..... Anderson(?)
* Side note on Kholi, his slip catching is really impressing me, think he has 3 sharp ones for the series at 3rd.

Kholi is top 2 of this era, Bradman is best for Any era. Holes exist. My biggest issue with Sobers was his batting at 6 for so long, but I understand why he did it and his numbers at 3 and 4 were just as or even more impressive.

Also please remember that sobers started his career and a no. 9 spin bowler. His 1st hundred came after 17 tests.

In my mind he is tied for 2nd best with Viv and Sachin and it's impossible for me to separate the 3. Lara, Hobbs, Hutton, Chappell, Barry comes right behind. Currently re evaluating my position re Pollock and Headley at the moment, and they might be in there as well.

 

[kyear2]

Tri squad competition.

Ashes XI

Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Don Bradman
Greg Chappell
Wally Hammond
Allan Border
Adam Gilchrist
Shane Warne
Fred Trueman
Dennis Lillee
Glenn McGrath

Sub Continent XI

Sunil Gavaskar
Virender Sehwag / Vijay Merchant
Kumar Sangakkara
Sachin Tendulkar
Virat Kholi
Farokh Engineer
Imran Khan
Wasim Akram
Ravi Ashwin
Muttiah Muralitharan
Waqar Younis

ROW XI

Barry Richards
Gordon Greenidge
Viv Richards
Graeme Pollock
Brian Lara
Garry Sobers
Jock Cameron
Mike Proctor / Hugh Tayfield
Richard Hadlee
Malcolm Marshall
Dale Steyn

Who wins?

 

[Bolo]

Ok. Off the top of my head, let's look at some of the bowlers Sir Garry faced.
Truman, Tyson, Snow, Willis, Underwood, Benaud, Davidson, Indian quartet, Fazal, Lillee (ROW XI)

Of the top tier ATG batsmen only Chappell, Viv, Lara, Sachin, Border, possibly Hutton and if you rate Gavaskar and Kallis faced better. And Gavaskar played on flatter home decks than anyone, and his record vs W.I was boosted a bit because of WSC.

In comparrison, who are the great bowlers that Bradman faced, Larwood (?), Verify. Pre LBW rules, some insanely flat tracks as well, just as many minnows to face.

Who are the great bowlers that kholi is facing today. Steyn and..... Anderson(?)
* Side note on Kholi, his slip catching is really impressing me, think he has 3 sharp ones for the series at 3rd.

Kholi is top 2 of this era, Bradman is best for Any era. Holes exist. My biggest issue with Sobers was his batting at 6 for so long, but I understand why he did it and his numbers at 3 and 4 were just as or even more impressive.

Also please remember that sobers started his career and a no. 9 spin bowler. His 1st hundred came after 17 tests.

In my mind he is tied for 2nd best with Viv and Sachin and it's impossible for me to separate the 3. Lara, Hobbs, Hutton, Chappell, Barry comes right behind. Currently re evaluating my position re Pollock and Headley at the moment, and they might be in there as well.

I don't think of most of these guys as top tier bowlers.

Tyson, Truman, benaud, and Davidson. Laker if he faced him. I don't count Lillee.

Top quality bowlers from his era he didn't face: Adcock, tayfield, Procter, van Der Bijl, and arguably Pollock.

Top bats who played before sobers didn't face too many top bowlers, because there weren't many. I count this against them. But most of them played the majority of their matches against the top opposition attack of their era, while Sobers didn't play them at all.

Since Sobers, everyone in contention has faced a number of quality bowlers. There has been a dearth recently, but not for such a lengthy time. 2006 or 7 felt like a real low point, but there were 6 ATGs i can think of operating at the same time. More than Sobers ever faced, and it's not that long ago compared to the length of Sobers career.

Then there is the htb issue, softness of pitches, his inconsistency. Maybe some other problems as well.

Sobers has more in his record to recommend him than anyone else. I tend to put him down as the best since Bradman for a variety of reasons. No need to sell him to me, because I'm overrating him if anything.
But I think his record is more flawed than anyone classed as a great since, other than Barry, Pollock, and Ponting.

I don't put someone like Kohli in the top tier yet. He's a bit more than halfway through his career. He's faced a few top bowlers (RSA quicks), and a few who could prove themselves top bowlers later. Mostly though, he's faced consistently good bowlers in challenging conditions, and could end up one of the best as a result.

 

[Red]

Sobers has a ton of holes in his record.

Sobers has more in his record to recommend him than anyone else

?

 

[Bolo]

The statements aren't contradictory. You can have both more to recommend a record and bigger question marks. Compare WG to a modern bat if you want a more obvious example.

 

[trundler]

Was thinking who's the greatest attacking opener of all time. Ideally I'd want a Yin and Yang opening combo. The 4 greatest openers above all others, namely Hobbs, Hutton, Gavaskar and Sutcliffe were all reputed to be stoic. This is obviously ignoring the contentious case of Barry Richards.