The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Flametree]

Not much love for Sutcliffe on these pages?

England :
1st xi : Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Hammond, Compton, Woolley, Knott *, Botham, Trueman, Laker, Barnes

2nd xi : Boycott, Amiss, Barrington, May, Dexter, Leyland, Ames *, Verity, Larwood, Bedser, Statham

3rd xi : Gooch, Edrich J, Mead, Paynter, Pietersen, Jackson FS, Tate, Evans *, Underwood, Snow, Lohmann

Australia :
1st xi : Ponsford, Simpson, Harvey, Bradman, Chappell G, Miller K, Gilchrist *, Davidson, Warne, O'Reilly, Lillee

2nd xi : Trumper, Barnes, McCabe, Macartney, Border, Waugh S, Healy *, Lindwall, Grimmett, Turner, McGrath

3rd xi : Morris, Lawry, Hill, Hassett, Walters, Hussey, Gregory, Tallon *, Gillespie, Grimmett, Johnston

 

[watson]

Gilchrist making it into an Australian AT XI upsets me somewhat - seems a keeper's batting is now well and truly more important than their glovework these days

England
1. Jack Hobbs
2. Herbert Sutcliffe
3. Wally Hammond
4. Peter May
5. Denis Compton
6. Douglas Jardine
7. Alan Knott
8. Harold Larwood
9. Hedley Verity
10. Sydney Barnes
11. Fred Trueman

I like this team a lot. Not playing Botham enables the inclusion of a great captain - Jardine. Jardine and Botham batting at No.5 and No.6 respectively would weaken the middle-order far too much. As its stands there is plenty of depth and a nice blend of attacking and defensive batsman.

It has two fast bowlers to share the new ball (one fast bowler is at least 50% short) and two very different spin bowlers who give excellent variety to the attack. Verity is preferred over Laker because he is just as skillful, but has the added bonus of being a left-armer. And a left-armer that Bradman happens to dislike facing.

I still prefer John Snow over Verity, but that's just me being overly pedantic with the 'fire-power' thing. I'll leave Bradman to the angry skill of SF Barnes who would be more than capable of holding his own.

I also think that a left-handed batsman gives added strength to the middle-order because they are better equiped to play leg-spinners. Gower, Leyland, and Woolley were all fabulous against leg-spin and would play Warne and O'Reilly exceedingly well in an Ashes battle.

I don't think that the team loses anything at all by replacing Hutton with Sutcliffe. Both were defensive batsman with near perfect techniques, although Hutton probably had slightly better footwork against spin bowling.

In a 5 Test match Ashes series I predict a 2-2 result with Australia having the better of the draw.

 

[Jager]

Agreed in regards to Sutcliffe/Hutton - pairing Sutcliffe with Hobbs gives you the boost of the greatest opening partnership of all - near telepathic running in between wickets, attack blending with defense etc.

 

[Jager]

Does anyone know if Barry Richards batted in the middle order at any time during his FC career?

 

[harsh.ag]

Don't know about Barry playing in the middle order, never saw it happen.

With regards the England ATXI, it always puzzles me why so few people have all 3 Hobbs, Sutcliffe and Hutton in the team. It makes perfect sense. To leave out any one of them borders on the incredulous.

Hobbs* | Sutcliffe | Hutton | Hammond | Barrington | Botham | Knott +| Larwood | Laker/Verity | Trueman | Barnes

Why would you leave Sutcliffe out when he was part of the greatest opening partnership in English history, and has a standalone average of 60 for goodness sake. As I said earlier, a difference of 5-7 runs in the averages is fine, but a difference of >10 should not be overlooked.

 

[smash84]

even a difference of 5-7 is huge. Anything less than 5 should be ok

 

[Jager]

Don't know about Barry playing in the middle order, never saw it happen.

With regards the England ATXI, it always puzzles me why so few people have all 3 Hobbs, Sutcliffe and Hutton in the team. It makes perfect sense. To leave out any one of them borders on the incredulous.

Hobbs* | Sutcliffe | Hutton | Hammond | Barrington | Botham | Knott +| Larwood | Laker/Verity | Trueman | Barnes

Why would you leave Sutcliffe out when he was part of the greatest opening partnership in English history, and has a standalone average of 60 for goodness sake. As I said earlier, a difference of 5-7 runs in the averages is fine, but a difference of >10 should not be overlooked.

Gun side there, would play Compton in place of Barrington though, otherwise there's not much to keep the runs flowing through the order until Botham

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

West Indies XI

Greenidge
Fredericks
Headley
Richards
Lara
Sobers
Hendriks
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose
Ramadhin

I'm going with my gut feelings here; included Roy Fredericks, Jackie Hendriks and Sonny Ramadhin.

Giving a nod to Fredericks for his ability to play pace on extreme fast pitches and score quickly too; although it doesn't matter that much for ATG XI to have left-right combo but still it's a factor. Jackie Hendriks for equally skillfull as wicket keeper to both pace and spin although this inclusion diminishes a bit of lower order batting strength. Clyde Walcott can perform the role and I wanted atleast one of three Ws to be there in the team but I've reached conclusion that for any ATG XI, leaving out a proper wicket keeper is not on. I've picked Sonny Ramadhin over Lance Gibbs. Although Gibbs could extract turn and bounce but Ramadhin could give it a rip and turn both ways sometimes. I've not seen Ramadhin's bowling but from accounts I'm assuming Ramadhin was more aggressive spinner than Gibbs. Maybe kyear can give more insight on this matter.

 

[benchmark00]

Nixon McLean stiff to miss out imo.

 

[benchmark00]

Nixon McLean stiff to miss out imo.

And big Swervin' Mervyn Dillon for that matter.

Both had the ability to chew an apple through a tennis racket.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

And big Swervin' Mervyn Dillon for that matter.

Reon King imho

 

[Red]

And big Swervin' Mervyn Dillon for that matter.

Both had the ability to chew an apple through a tennis racket.

The Benjamins.

 

[doesitmatter]

The Benjamins.

Cuffy..Everything about him pointed to another Amby but did not bowl like one..obviously

 

[watson]

West Indies XI

Greenidge
Fredericks
Headley
Richards
Lara
Sobers
Hendriks
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose
Ramadhin

I'm going with my gut feelings here; included Roy Fredericks, Jackie Hendriks and Sonny Ramadhin.

Giving a nod to Fredericks for his ability to play pace on extreme fast pitches and score quickly too; although it doesn't matter that much for ATG XI to have left-right combo but still it's a factor. Jackie Hendriks for equally skillfull as wicket keeper to both pace and spin although this inclusion diminishes a bit of lower order batting strength. Clyde Walcott can perform the role and I wanted atleast one of three Ws to be there in the team but I've reached conclusion that for any ATG XI, leaving out a proper wicket keeper is not on. I've picked Sonny Ramadhin over Lance Gibbs. Although Gibbs could extract turn and bounce but Ramadhin could give it a rip and turn both ways sometimes. I've not seen Ramadhin's bowling but from accounts I'm assuming Ramadhin was more aggressive spinner than Gibbs. Maybe kyear can give more insight on this matter.

Here is some footage of Ramadhin bowling. There are not a lot of deliveries, but we can still get an idea of how he bowled;

1951/52: Australia tame Windies spin twins :: The largest library of cricket videos

Ramadhin has a fast action with his left arm held high prior to delivery, and a full follow through with his right arm. Therefore, he looks a bit like a 'windmill' when he bowls. There is little body movement with most of the power seemingly coming from the shoulders. There is no classic pivot of the hips like Laker or Bedi. Consequently, I don't think that there would be much variation in flight. If the batsman is beaten then it wouldn't have been 'through the air', it would have been via the ball turning once it hit the pitch. But that's just an assumption.

I couldn't make my mind up whether he was more side-on or chest-on when he bowled.

Incidently, Ramadhin seems to be a good choice. Probably on a par with Gibbs, if not better due to his better variation.

 

[kyear2]

Gibbs and Valentine were both bigger spinners of the ball than Ramadin, with Gibbs adding bounce and unerring accuratecy. Ramadin was the original mystery spimner who cound turn it both ways. Both Ramadin and Valentine though suffered through poor captaincy and being over bowled. All three are under rated and at their best, match winners. Gibbs, Ramadin and then Valentine.

 

[kyear2]

Don't understand the notion that Walcott was not a propper keeper. He made the W.I team as a keeper and during his initial struggles with the bat, it was his keeping that kept him in the team. he kept flawlessly to Ramdin and Valentine and was good to the faster guys. From talking to people who saw him keep, he didn't do a lot of diving, but had good footwork and was very safe and very comparable to a Gilchrist/ Boucher.
Kindly also remember that Knott was not the best keeper during his time either, but was preferred because of his batting. Taylor and Andrew were much better keepers, but no one chooses them. And to remember, even Knott and Healy had big drops.

 

[Jager]

West Indies XI

Greenidge
Fredericks
Headley
Richards
Lara
Sobers
Hendriks
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose
Ramadhin

I'm going with my gut feelings here; included Roy Fredericks, Jackie Hendriks and Sonny Ramadhin.

Giving a nod to Fredericks for his ability to play pace on extreme fast pitches and score quickly too; although it doesn't matter that much for ATG XI to have left-right combo but still it's a factor. Jackie Hendriks for equally skillfull as wicket keeper to both pace and spin although this inclusion diminishes a bit of lower order batting strength. Clyde Walcott can perform the role and I wanted atleast one of three Ws to be there in the team but I've reached conclusion that for any ATG XI, leaving out a proper wicket keeper is not on. I've picked Sonny Ramadhin over Lance Gibbs. Although Gibbs could extract turn and bounce but Ramadhin could give it a rip and turn both ways sometimes. I've not seen Ramadhin's bowling but from accounts I'm assuming Ramadhin was more aggressive spinner than Gibbs. Maybe kyear can give more insight on this matter.

Andy

Gun side that, probably my favourite WI XI I've seen someone create. In regards to kyear's comment, Walcott keeping to Ambrose, Holding, Marshall, Big Joel etc. would not be nearly as successful as the great man Hendriks. Walcott's batting would also suffer as a result of keeping - he averaged 40 with the gloves, I'd expect a little lower keeping to the WI demons in this side, diminishing his value somewhat

 

[kyear2]

But who said that he couldn't keep to Marshall, Ambrose, Holding and Gibbs. Keeping to fast bowling is easier that keeping to 98 overs of big LH turners and mystery spin. I have spoken to people who saw him keep and the three West Indian comentators/ historians I trust most all included him in their teams.

 

[watson]

Of course you could have a bet each way and pick Dujon. Probably not quite as good as Hendriks but still dynamic, and good enough to be selected in the WI team as a specialist batsman from time to time.

 

[watson]

Don't understand the notion that Walcott was not a propper keeper. He made the W.I team as a keeper and during his initial struggles with the bat, it was his keeping that kept him in the team. he kept flawlessly to Ramdin and Valentine and was good to the faster guys. From talking to people who saw him keep, he didn't do a lot of diving, but had good footwork and was very safe and very comparable to a Gilchrist/ Boucher.
Kindly also remember that Knott was not the best keeper during his time either, but was preferred because of his batting. Taylor and Andrew were much better keepers, but no one chooses them. And to remember, even Knott and Healy had big drops.

I can't think who 'Andrew' was, but I wouldn't say that Bob Taylor was a better than Knott. They were at least on a par.