The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[LongHopCassidy]

Hanif Mohammad
Saeed Anwaar
Younis Khan
Javed Miandad
Inzamam Ul-Haq
Mushtaq Mohammad
Imran Khan
Wasim Bari
Wasim Akram
Waqar Younis
Abdul Qadir

Mohammad Yousuf
Fazal Mohammad
Salim Malik

Zaheer Abbas a bit stiff to miss out. Would put him at 3 and Mohammad Yousuf at 6.

EDIT: if match fixing skulduggery isn't an issue Malik must play.

 

[Red]

What I find intesting is that we are generally more tolerant toward a spin bowlers stat's than we are tolerant toward a pace bowlers stat's. For example;

Derek Underwood:
Average = 25.83
Strike rate = 73.6
Average V WI = 43.57
Strike Rate V WI = 102.0

Mike Hendrick:
Average = 25.83
Strike rate = 71.3
Average V WI = 55.0
Strike Rate V WI = 113.0

So, despite the fact that their bowling average is exactly the same to two decimal places, and both their records against the West Indies are rubbish, Underwood is often selected in an ATG England team without too much thought, but Hendrick doesn't get a seconds look in.

You have to take in to account the different roles played by spinners and quicks. When the ball is older, spinners come to the fore, but often their stats need to be viewed separately from the quicks, as they are likely to be hit around more when the ball is old, but at that point in the innings they are (probably) more likely to take a wicket with an old ball than a quick.

 

[Red]

Aus 1st XI
1. V. Trumper
2. B. Simpson
3. D. Bradman
4. G. Chappell
5. K. Miller
6. N. Harvey
7 . A. Gilchrist
8. S. Warne
9. D. Lillee
10. B. O'Reilly
11. G. McGrath


Aus 2nd XI
1. A. Morris
2. B. Lawry
3. R. Ponting
4. S. McCabe
5. A. Border
6. D. Walters
7. B. Oldfield
8. J. Gregory
9. R. Lindwall
10. A. Davidson
11. C. Grimmett

 

[NUFAN]

Aus 1st XI
1. V. Trumper
2. B. Simpson
3. D. Bradman
4. G. Chappell
5. K. Miller
6. N. Harvey
7 . A. Gilchrist
8. S. Warne
9. D. Lillee
10. B. O'Reilly
11. G. McGrath


Aus 2nd XI
1. A. Morris
2. B. Lawry
3. R. Ponting
4. S. McCabe
5. A. Border
6. D. Walters
7. B. Oldfield
8. J. Gregory
9. R. Lindwall
10. A. Davidson
11. C. Grimmett

Doug Walters over Steve Waugh? Interesting decision. I guess you wanted an attacking bat or did you just forget about Tugga?

 

[Red]

Doug Walters over Steve Waugh? Interesting decision. I guess you wanted an attacking bat or did you just forget about Tugga?

Nah, didn't forget him. Rate Walters higher as a batsman than S. Waugh, although they're pretty close. Waugh would definitely be in the third XI.

 

[kyear2]

Thats harsh.

 

[NUFAN]

I wasn't a SWaugh fan as such but it was hard not to admire his fighting qualities throughout his impressive career.

My issue with Walters is his record against England, not looking at statz at the moment, but from memory it's quite terrible. Waugh is a shoe-in for my Aussie all time A team.

 

[kyear2]

awta

 

[NUFAN]

1 Trumper 2 Morris 3 Bradman 4 Chappell 5 Border 6 Miller 7 Gilchrist 8 Davidson 9 Warne 10 Lillee 11 McGrath

1 Simpson 2 Hayden 3 Ponting 4 Harvey 5 S.Waugh 6 McCabe 7 Healy 8 Lindwall 9 O'Reilly 10 Spofforth 11 Thomson


If my plan was to make the second team as strong as possible, I would move O'Reilly up to the first team, move Davidson down to the second team, bring in Grimmett and omit Thomson BUT I feel as though the first team is the strongest team available.

 

[Red]

Thats harsh.

I wasn't a SWaugh fan as such but it was hard not to admire his fighting qualities throughout his impressive career.

My issue with Walters is his record against England, not looking at statz at the moment, but from memory it's quite terrible. Waugh is a shoe-in for my Aussie all time A team.

You're right about Walters there actually. Waugh is incredibly consistent against all opponents in all conditions. Alright, I've re-thunk it based on consistency....

Aus 1st XI
1. V. Trumper
2. B. Simpson
3. D. Bradman
4. G. Chappell
5. K. Miller
6. N. Harvey
7 . A. Gilchrist
8. S. Warne
9. D. Lillee
10. B. O'Reilly
11. G. McGrath


Aus 2nd XI
1. A. Morris
2. B. Lawry
3. R. Ponting
4. S. McCabe
5. A. Border
6. S. Waugh
7. B. Oldfield
8. J. Gregory
9. R. Lindwall
10. A. Davidson
11. C. Grimmett


Aus 3rd XI
1. M. Taylor
2. B. Ponsford
3. C. Macartney
4. L. Hassett
5. M. Clarke
6. D. Walters
7. R. Benaud
8. I. Healy
9. B. Johnston
10. G. McKenzie
11. F. Spofforth

 

[watson]

I wasn't a SWaugh fan as such but it was hard not to admire his fighting qualities throughout his impressive career.

My issue with Walters is his record against England, not looking at statz at the moment, but from memory it's quite terrible. Waugh is a shoe-in for my Aussie all time A team.

Doug Walters
Test Innings in England: 30
Average in England: 25.68
Centuries in England: 0

Steve Waugh
Test Innings in England: 32
Average in England: 74.22
Centuries in England: 7

A differential of about 50 runs an innings in Waughs favour is a significant plus.

 

[NUFAN]

Doug Walters
Test Innings in England: 30
Average in England: 25.68
Centuries in England: 0

Steve Waugh
Test Innings in England: 32
Average in England: 74.22
Centuries in England: 7

A differential of about 50 runs an innings in Waughs favour is a significant plus.

Only saving grace for Walters is that England were better in his time. Waugh got to feast on some pretty ordinary attacks throughout most of his career in England, usually after a strong platform had been set.

Of course, he still played some memorable knocks, his twin tons in Manchester in particular.

 

[smash84]

Smali, of course every batsman should know how to handle pace bowling in seaming conditions. Since we all accept that, why don't we accept they should also know how to handle spin bowling on spin friendly pitches?

A top class batsman should know how to handle both but I daresay that pace bowlers have been more effective in most venues of the world compared to spinners and it seems that this trend will continue into the future hence more important to play fast bowlers better.

 

[watson]

You have to take in to account the different roles played by spinners and quicks. When the ball is older, spinners come to the fore, but often their stats need to be viewed separately from the quicks, as they are likely to be hit around more when the ball is old, but at that point in the innings they are (probably) more likely to take a wicket with an old ball than a quick.

Very good point. But how old is old? The fact remains, a good fast bowler can utilise the ball for longer than a spin bowler and therefore be more effective during the allotted 90 overs. Especially if he can Reverse Swing an old ball.

Spin bowlers also tend to 'win' Test matches on the 5th Day when the pitch is worn. But that assumes the Test match reaches the 5th Day. With a trio of top notch quicks the Test match is sometimes won within 4 days thus making the spin bowler little more than a passenger.

Having said all that, a quality spin bowler is a must if you are lucky enough to have one to select. And should be included in any ATG team.

Two spinners in an ATG team though? That's an interesting question.

 

[smash84]

some good points Watto

 

[watson]

Only saving grace for Walters is that England were better in his time. Waugh got to feast on some pretty ordinary attacks throughout most of his career in England, usually after a strong platform had been set.

Of course, he still played some memorable knocks, his twin tons in Manchester in particular.

I'm sure that the 'ordinary attacks' helped Waugh. But by the same token an average of 25 over 30 innings indicates that Walters had technical deficiencies under English conditions. That is, I don't think that he coped well with 'side-ways movement' and lower bounce.

After all, not every Australian batsman from the 1960s-70s ended up with an average of only 25 after playing in England.

 

[Red]

Would be interesting (to me, at least) to compare the strengths of each test nation's 2nd XI.

I'd imagine the WIs would be very strong. If we basically agree on the following as their ATG team:

1. G. Greenidge
2. C. Hunte
3. G. Headley
4. V. Richards
5. B. Lara
6. G. Sobers
7. J. Dujon
8. M. Marshall
9. C. Ambrose
10. M. Holding
11. L. Gibbs

Their 2nd XI might be:

1. R. Fredericks
2. D. Haynes
3. F. Worrell
4. E. Weekes
5. R. Kanhai/ Kallicharan/Rowe
6. C. Lloyd
7. C. Walcott
8. A. Roberts
9. J. Garner
10. W. Hall/ C.Walsh/ I. Bishop/ C. Croft
11. S. Ramadhin


That second XI is brutal, and I think it'd give England's and Australia's first XIs a run for their money.

 

[Red]

Very good point. But how old is old? The fact remains, a good fast bowler can utilise the ball for longer than a spin bowler and therefore be more effective during the allotted 90 overs. Especially if he can Reverse Swing an old ball.

Spin bowlers also tend to 'win' Test matches on the 5th Day when the pitch is worn. But that assumes the Test match reaches the 5th Day. With a trio of top notch quicks the Test match is sometimes won within 4 days thus making the spin bowler little more than a passenger.

Having said all that, a quality spin bowler is a must if you are lucky enough to have one to select. And should be included in any ATG team.

Two spinners in an ATG team though? That's an interesting question.

I have no hesitation in including both O'Reilly and Warne in my Australian XI as I have Miller as the third quick, and he is able to bat in the middle order. Miller is a genuine opening bowler. McGrath, Lillee, Miller, O'Reilly and Warne is a great attack. I do feel strongly that ATG teams need five legitimate bowlers, or at very least a 5th option that is very good. I'd also love to include a left armer, but just can't squeeze Davidson in, as I think McGrath is a slightly better bowler than him (as is Lindwall). So variety only comes in to consideration when two players are virtually of the same in ability for me.

You're right, and on day 4 and 5, the thought of Warne and O'Reilly bowling together is something extraordinary to contemplate. The aggression, pressure and sledging/gamesmanship would be relentless.

 

[smash84]

why is Davidson not selected ahead of some of the other blokes?

His average is outstanding

 

[smash84]

how about davidson and McG as the opening bowlers? That would be a miserly opening pair if there was one I reckon?