The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[smash84]

I can't think who 'Andrew' was, but I wouldn't say that Bob Taylor was a better than Knott. They were at least on a par.

awta

 

[harsh.ag]

All Rounders ATXI

Wilfred Rhodes | Charles Macartney | Jacques Kallis | Garry Sobers | Aubrey Faulkner | Keith Miller* | Adam Gilchrist +| Ian Botham | Imran Khan | Mike Procter | Richard Hadlee

I was confused between Trevor Goddard and Wilfred Rhodes? I wanted the best spin all rounder, and I assumed Rhodes was better. Anybody know more about him? WG Grace, Eddie Barlow, Kapil Dev, Clive Rice, Shaun Pollock, Shane Watson, Freddie Flintoff, Tony Greig, Mushtaq Mohammad and Vinoo Mankad come the closest. Not counting Wasim Akram and Alan Davidson as all rounders. Better openers, anybody?

 

[watson]

All Rounders ATXI

Wilfred Rhodes | Charles Macartney | Jacques Kallis | Garry Sobers | Aubrey Faulkner | Keith Miller* | Adam Gilchrist +| Ian Botham | Imran Khan | Mike Procter | Richard Hadlee

I was confused between Trevor Goddard and Wilfred Rhodes? I wanted the best spin all rounder, and I assumed Rhodes was better. Anybody know more about him? WG Grace, Eddie Barlow, Kapil Dev, Clive Rice, Shaun Pollock, Shane Watson, Freddie Flintoff, Tony Greig, Mushtaq Mohammad and Vinoo Mankad come the closest. Not counting Wasim Akram and Alan Davidson as all rounders. Better openers, anybody?

As strange as it sounds, Wilfred Rhodes was not a true allrounder. When he became a specialist batsman he more-or-less gave up bowling. Although obviously, there must have been a transitional stage where he was competent at both disciplines. However, the greatest of Rhodes is derived exclusively from his bowling skills, not batting.

 

[Jager]

All-round XI
1. Wilfred Rhodes
2. Trevor Goddard
3. Garfield Sobers
4. Jacques Kallis
5. Keith Miller
6. Aubrey Faulkner
7. Adam Gilchrist †
8. Mike Procter
9. Imran Khan
10. Richard Hadlee
11. Alan Davidson

Who takes the new ball!? Argh!

 

[watson]

Incidently, Wildred Rhodes averaged 36.72 (2 centuries) when opening the innings.

Otherwise 23.13 (2 fifties).

 

[ankitj]

Need Trevor Goddard. Not sure if Charles Macartney qualifies as an allrounder with just 45 wickets in 35 matches.

 

[LongHopCassidy]

Frank Woolley stiff to miss out tbh.

 

[Red]

Benaud as a spinner in the all rounders XI?

1. Trevor Goddard (6)
2. Jack Gregory (5)
3. Jaques Kallis (10)
4. Garry Sobers (9)
5. Keith Miller (c) (3)
6. Ian Botham (8)
7. Adam Gilchrist (wk)
8. Richie Benaud (7)
9. Imran Khan (2)
10. Richard Hadlee (1)
11. Alan Davidson (4)

 

[watson]

Benaud as a spinner in the all rounders XI?

1. Trevor Goddard (6)
2. Jack Gregory (5)
3. Jaques Kallis (10)
4. Garry Sobers (9)
5. Keith Miller (c) (3)
6. Ian Botham (8)
7. Adam Gilchrist (wk)
8. Richie Benaud (7)
9. Imran Khan (2)
10. Richard Hadlee (1)
11. Alan Davidson (4)

I suppose that if Davidson is classed as an allrounder then Richie should be too.

 

[watson]

01. Farokh Enginner+
02. Trevor Goddard
03. Jaques Kallis
04. Garfield Sobers
05. Aubrey Faulkner
06. Frank Woolley
07. Keith Miller
08. Mike Proctor
09. Imran Khan*
10. Richie Benaud
11. Richard Hadlee

Engineer was a regular opening batsman for India from 1965 to 1975 so he slots nicely into the No.1 spot.

Also, I like a balanced attack so I've included 3 spinners, or 4 if you count Sobers

 

[kyear2]

Not sure if we are any closer to a consensus on any of the XI's, but in what order do we rate the different teams so far?

 

[doesitmatter]

cannot believe Kapil Dev Nikhanj is not there in the allrounders XI..Man had the best record against the best team of the era or may be forever..

 

[NUFAN]

Not sure if we are any closer to a consensus on any of the XI's, but in what order do we rate the different teams so far?

1 Australia
2 West Indies
3 England


The gap is marginal. If no Don, Australia wouldn't be first. In fact I think we'd be third if he was replaced by a Ponting/McCabe/Waugh/Harvey (whoever is next) type.

South Africa, Pakistan and India are next but I haven't worked out the order quite yet, but it's probably the order I've named them.

New Zealand in seventh, followed by Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe and Bangladesh.

 

[harsh.ag]

Benaud as a spinner in the all rounders XI?

1. Trevor Goddard (6)
2. Jack Gregory (5)
3. Jaques Kallis (10)
4. Garry Sobers (9)
5. Keith Miller (c) (3)
6. Ian Botham (8)
7. Adam Gilchrist (wk)
8. Richie Benaud (7)
9. Imran Khan (2)
10. Richard Hadlee (1)
11. Alan Davidson (4)

Great team Monk. Two things though. What about Eddie Barlow ahead of Goddard, and Charles Macartney ahead of Gregory? Benaud is a great addition here.

 

[kyear2]

1 Australia
2 West Indies
3 England


The gap is marginal. If no Don, Australia wouldn't be first. In fact I think we'd be third if he was replaced by a Ponting/McCabe/Waugh/Harvey (whoever is next) type.

South Africa, Pakistan and India are next but I haven't worked out the order quite yet, but it's probably the order I've named them.

New Zealand in seventh, followed by Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe and Bangladesh.

I think that it is too close to call for the top spot, but for the rest

1) Australia
1a) West Indies

3) South Africa

4) England
5) Pakistan

6) India

7) Sri Lanka
7a) New Zealand

 

[Jager]

Australia beat WI in batting (Bradman), spin (Warne/O'Reilly/Grimmett) and fielding overall (the latter is my opinion). The pace attacks would be very close - I'd give it to WI but not by all that much. I can't separate SA and England - the batting lineups are too hard to split, England win the spin battle but SA are ahead in fast bowling, Procter being the deciding factor. NZ and SL are hard to split, too, but Hadlee and Bond give NZ the edge.

1. Australia
2. West Indies
3. South Africa/England
5. Pakistan
6. India
7. New Zealand
8. Sri Lanka
9. Zimbabwe
10. Bangladesh

 

[harsh.ag]

Australia beat WI in batting (Bradman), spin (Warne/O'Reilly/Grimmett) and fielding overall (the latter is my opinion). The pace attacks would be very close - I'd give it to WI but not by all that much. I can't separate SA and England - the batting lineups are too hard to split, England win the spin battle but SA are ahead in fast bowling, Procter being the deciding factor. NZ and SL are hard to split, too, but Hadlee and Bond give NZ the edge.

1. Australia
2. West Indies
3. South Africa/England
5. Pakistan
6. India
7. New Zealand
8. Sri Lanka
9. Zimbabwe
10. Bangladesh

Australia do not beat WI in batting mate. Esp if we take this WI side:
Greenidge | Headley | Viv | Sobers | Lara | Weekes | Walcott +| Marshall | Holding | Garner | Ambrose |

How does
Trumper | Simpson | Bradman | Chappell | Ponting/Border/Waugh/Harvey | Miller | Gilchrist | Warne | Lillee | O'Reilly | McGrath |
beat the above batting line-up?

Pace too is better for Windies. Only in spin does Australia take a major win.

The rest of the list is good.

 

[smash84]

Aus and WI up for top spot

I think that it is close b/w Pak, SA and Eng. Do think that SA probably have the edge over Eng and Pak.

 

[Jager]

Australia do not beat WI in batting mate. Esp if we take this WI side:
Greenidge | Headley | Viv | Sobers | Lara | Weekes | Walcott +| Marshall | Holding | Garner | Ambrose |

How does
Trumper | Simpson | Bradman | Chappell | Ponting/Border/Waugh/Harvey | Miller | Gilchrist | Warne | Lillee | O'Reilly | McGrath |
beat the above batting line-up?

Pace too is better for Windies. Only in spin does Australia take a major win.

The rest of the list is good.

First of all Headley never opened the batting for WI - stupid to play him there. Secondly I am putting Gilchrist in this team, not because I want him there but because everyone else does. Thirdly, your team has no spinner, and WI experienced much less success when they ran all 4 of the quartet together.

So batting only...

Greenidge v Trumper
Headley v Simpson (as an opener, Simpson is tried, tested and bloody good.)
Viv v Bradman
Sobers v Chappell (Chappell is equal to Viv and Bradman beats Sobers, but I didn't switch them even if it would assist my argument.)
Lara v Harvey (draw)
Weekes v Miller
Walcott + v Gilchrist (whilst wicketkeeping, Gilchrist shreds Walcott)
Marshall v Warne (draw)
Holding v Lillee (not by a huge margin)
Garner v O'Reilly (draw)
Ambrose v McGrath (it should be noted McGrath improved a whole lot towards the end of his career)

So it ends 4-4, with WI winning two points in their tail so they do not count for much.

Realistically it's more like 5-3 because of Bradman's crushing of whoever he goes up against should mean he gets 2 points, and for the WI tail victories only being worth half a point since they are far less important.

Then it comes to bowling, your WI side has no spin, whereas Australia has five absolute legend-status bowling options and far more variety.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Struggle to get anything out of that sort of analysis.

And how is it true that the Windies had less success when they had a four pronged pace attack?