The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[h_hurricane]

Definitely inferior to Beefy in their core strength XI (the last 40 years)

Mike Atherton
John Wright
Nasser Hussein
Kim Hughes (c)
Ramnaresh Sarwan
Shaun Pollock (AR)
Jason Gillespie
James Anderson
Shoaib Akhtar
Courtney Walsh
Wicket keeper +

Only Wright, Hussain and Hughes are debatable. Others are better than him in primary skill.

 

[bagapath]

According to Bag, it should be Botham>Pollock>Walsh. I honestly think he's trolling at this point. Pollock > Walsh I can accept but not Botham

No. I said Botham-Walsh-Pollock-(Kapil) feels right for me.

 

[bagapath]

Marshall

Ambrose

Holding

Garner

Roberts

I would place Walsh as the sixth best WI bowler.

Very good top 5

Walsh Bishop Hall equally solid contenders for the sixth spot. Gun to my head I’ll go in that order though.

 

[ImpatientLime]

the whole 'he had to compete with greater bowlers for his wickets' argument is easily turned the other way.

it must be a lot easier being first change and coming on bowling to 30-3.

 

[ankitj]

McGrath basically never bothered with the tail.

Botham was the bigger match winner and on field personality than Walsh but Walsh had a better career as a bowler.

This thread has made me rethink Walsh a bit. I've always seen him as a dramatic step down from Curtley but maybe I'm interesting him a bit. I'd still pick half a dozen other West Indies quicks over him but perhaps he was better than I was giving him credit for. Tbf I mostly saw him play in Australia and he was definitely a support act over here.

Another cricketing great whose career you didn't quite know well enough. Hmm.

 

[Slifer]

Definitely inferior to Beefy in their core strength XI (the last 40 years)

Mike Atherton
John Wright
Nasser Hussein
Kim Hughes (c)
Ramnaresh Sarwan
Shaun Pollock (AR)
Jason Gillespie
James Anderson
Shoaib Akhtar
Courtney Walsh
Wicket keeper +

Ok now I know u must be trolling. U put walsh and pollock in a team with sarwan and Hussein. So you're saying pollock and Walsh's bowling were on a similar level to mike Athertons batting?? And that both their bowling were inferior to Botham?? With all due respect Hell no!!!

 

[Slifer]

That’s right. But not just because of the fivefers. Garner is a giant of a bowler with just seven five fers

I rate Botham above pollock and Walsh because he ran through batting line ups more often than them. Shaun and Courtney are the ringo Starrs. Greatish. But one step below definitely great zone.

Name one Beefy great series performance by Beefy against the atg team of his time??? Just one??

 

[trundler]

Glenn Turner
Bill Lawry
Rohan Kanhai
Peter May
Martin Crowe
Chanderpaul
Richie Benaud
Shaun Pollock
Wasim Bari
Wee Hall
Courtney Walsh

IMO

 

[bagapath]

Ok now I know u must be trolling. U put walsh and pollock in a team with sarwan and Hussein. So you're saying pollock and Walsh's bowling were on a similar level to mike Athertons batting?? And that both their bowling were inferior to Botham?? With all due respect Hell no!!!

Is that how you interpret the team????

It is all relative to Botham. It is made up of frontline batters and frontline bowlers who were inferior to him, in my opinion. No comparison between them, directly.

Botham was a very good batsman but a great bowler. So this team boasts of superior bowling talent, naturally. And yes I consider Botham to be better than these bowlers, in bowling. And better than these batsmen, in batting. That doesn’t mean the batting talent and the bowling talent in this team are of same quality.

 

[bagapath]

Name one Beefy great series performance by Beefy against the atg team of his time??? Just one??

And how does not having one such performance make Walsh or Pollock better than him? When did they ever win matches on their own? You’re comparing steady bassists with a mercurial lead guitarist.

 

[Slifer]

And how does not having one such performance make Walsh or Pollock better than him? When did they ever win matches on their own? You’re comparing steady bassists with a mercurial lead guitarist.

Because it's all good and well doing it against weakened oz teams or weak NZ or whoever. It's a completely different kettle of fish doing it vs great teams or under difficult circumstances. And Beefy supposedly winning matches is more a reflection of his all around skills not just his bowling. Lead guitarist?? 383 wkts @ 28 is good. Not remotely great. 500+ at 24 plus going at 20 in india and Pakistan is much much more impressive.

 

[Red]

You missed Red Hill claiming Miller was on Border’s level as a batsman a few pages back mate.

You’d have to have suffered a cerebral event to think that ffs, and I’m a Nugget fan.

He more or less was, though. Similar FC averages and identical amount of 100s made as a % of FC matches played. His average in tests was lower because of the bowling workload Bradman asked him to assume (which he dominated at).

FWIW, my point wasn't exactly that "Miller was on Border’s level as a batsman", it was that with a lightened bowling workload that Miller could take in an ATG team (maybe 6-10 overs per innings instead of 20+), we'd see him average a lot closer to 50 than 40 in tests. All the while giving you a genuine pace strike bowling option.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah but, you know, if TOTAB didn't have to carry a team of special needs kids during his peak years, he'd have averaged 128.3.

 

[Bolo]

This thread seems to have turned into a competition about who can express the most outrageously wrong opinion. Bagabath, no need to continue with the crazy botham comparisons. You won already with the Ntini=Pollock. Not that it is necessarily the worst comparison on this thread, but it is the most easily debunkable seeing as they were teammates for most of their careers.

Ntini averages 37 away. The people we normally mock for being htbs (Anderson, jadedja etc) would throw up in their own mouths at the thought of those kind of stats

 

[Red]

Yeah but, you know, if TOTAB didn't have to carry a team of special needs kids during his peak years, he'd have averaged 128.3.

I loved AB (and Boonie) as much as any other 80s Australian kid. My comparison wasn't intended to denigrate him at all, trust me. I know how good he was.

Miller was a ****ing good batsman though. Post war he was probably suffering (undiagnosed) PTSD, and his post-war apathy for contrived competition and unnecessary aggression has been well documented- it was the root of his inability to get along with Bradman (and later Bradman's man, Ian Johnson) imo. Miller's wartime perspective truly gave him the ability to see cricket for what it was, a great game, but not everything.

 

[stephen]

Another cricketing great whose career you didn't quite know well enough. Hmm.

Well the thing is I'd seen plenty of Walsh. It's just that he wasn't great when I saw him. Easily overshadowed by Ambrose and Bishop. It's a bit like when Indian fans underrate Warne.

 

[Logan]

I don’t think anyone underrates Warne. He is often regarded as the best spinner ever. At best, he is second only to Muralitharan which is fair enough

 

[CricAddict]

Well the thing is I'd seen plenty of Walsh. It's just that he wasn't great when I saw him. Easily overshadowed by Ambrose and Bishop. It's a bit like when Indian fans underrate Warne.

I loved Shane Warne a lot when he was playing and would like to watch him play rather than Murali. He is a crowd-puller. But the truth is, he did not do well at all against India and that will always be a blackmark in his career. Murali quite a few times dominated the strong Indian batting line-up.

 

[CricAddict]

Remember one India test series against WI during those days when I had high expectations from the Indian team that time for an overseas win. But Ambrose, Walsh and Rose totally decimated India. Just the 3 of them bowled and took all the wickets for less than 100. I think it is the series in which Sidhu scored a selfish 201 and got dropped the next test.

 

[h_hurricane]

Well the thing is I'd seen plenty of Walsh. It's just that he wasn't great when I saw him. Easily overshadowed by Ambrose and Bishop. It's a bit like when Indian fans underrate Warne.

But Warne was complete thrash against India. Walsh was only below par against Australia. Not one bit same.

I don't think indians under-rate Warne the way you do for Walsh. It is just that a total non-show against the best spin playing nation is a bit of a blot in Warne's career.