The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[smash84]

tbf iirc there was some discussion somewhere on here a little while ago about McGrath improving his batting mid career via Steve Waugh

McGrath has a batting average lower than Courtney Walsh. His batting avg is 7.36. And having seen him bat all throughout his career, i honestly think that 7.36 flatters him.

 

[kyear2]

You do know that not everyone believes in this bat deep thing like you do. And this has nothing to do with Imran at this point.

We see that differently, God knows we see the keeping thing even more differently. Not everything is covered up by batting deeper.

Yes I have Imran rated ahead of him, but I think Steyn is clearly a better bowler than him, and if I have Hadlee, Maco and Shane, the batting isn't a mess. That's all that meant.

Re Sobers and Sachin. I have them basically tied, you don't and fair play to you. I also don't see the scenario of a great 5 man attack because we disagree on that as well. Additionally, there aren't three 2nd slip guys who are better than him, and certainly none who can bat as well as him.


And I'm going to finish up with this, because some of you take this as a personal affront.

The thing that makes a Sobers unique among the all rounders, and especially in this context, and this goes back to what Subz was saying about Kallis. He can make this team as a batsman alone, what's then added to it is that he is also the best option at two other critical spots.

Gilchrist is similar because he's the only world class keeper who's been a world class batsman.

And to touch on something from the other thread, they might not even be the 2nd name of my team sheet if I were writing one, that would be my opening bowler who I believe is the best who has ever done it, That's why he's my number 3.

You see it differently, and that's fine too.

@smash84

If you want to reply to something, reply to this.

Tell me how I'm poisoning the forum with this one.

 

[Coronis]

McGrath has a batting average lower than Courtney Walsh. His batting avg is 7.36. And having seen him bat all throughout his career, i honestly think that 7.36 flatters him.

lol I was never saying he was good or anything. Just that iirc there was a distinct improvement he noticed at some point that also pans out statistically.

 

[capt_Luffy]

lol I was never saying he was good or anything. Just that iirc there was a distinct improvement he noticed at some point that also pans out statistically.

Something to do with Steve Waugh? I read an article about it sometime ago.

 

[smash84]

@smash84

If you want to reply to something, reply to this.

Tell me how I'm poisoning the forum with this one.

I might just bite on this invitation and then regret later

 

[kyear2]

Sure but come on, it'd be like if someone started gassing up Tendulkar's bowling in a comparison with Sobers. Actually,now that I think about it, that has way more validity. Sachin actually bowled valuable spells in some of our most famous wins in tests (particularly vs Australia).

Gassing up Mcgraths batting smh I can't with this place sometimes

At no point was it gassing up anything and he never even tried to call him decent far less good.

No one is remotely even saying that his batting even factors in even one iota to his selection.

But Waugh did work with him nearing the end of his career and tried to get his batting to the point of "hang aroundaboutable"

Not everything here is a gotcha moment.

It's past the point of debating when everyone is trying to get someone else.

 

[Coronis]

At no point was it gassing up anything and he never even tried to call him decent far less good.

No one is remotely even saying that his batting even factors in even one iota to his selection.

But Waugh did work with him nearing the end of his career and tried to get his batting to the point of "hang aroundaboutable"

Not everything here is a gotcha moment.

It's past the point of debating when everyone is trying to get someone else.

I was waiting for this post.

















Gotcha!

 

[smash84]

@smash84

If you want to reply to something, reply to this.

It really is hard to understand your logic. If not everything is covered by bat deeper, why do you have Gilchrist in place of Alan Knott or Healy or some other slightly better keeper?

 

[peterhrt]

In 2002 Christopher Martin-Jenkins selected England and Rest of the World XIs for The Times newspaper covering the period 1953-2002. The teams were to play five Tests against each other at Lord's, Barbados, Cape Town, Eden Gardens and Sydney. The matches were later simulated. His teams were as follows:

England: Hutton*, Gooch, Dexter, May, Cowdrey, Botham, Knott+, Laker, Underwood, Trueman, Statham.

Rest of the World: Gavaskar, Barry Richards, Viv Richards, Lara, Tendulkar, Sobers*, Gilchrist+, Marshall, Warne, Lillee, Muralitharan.

After many years of reporting he said that Lillee was generally regarded as the best fast bowler of the period in question, followed by Marshall then Hadlee.

 

[Coronis]

In 2002 Christopher Martin-Jenkins selected England and Rest of the World XIs for The Times newspaper covering the period 1953-2002. The teams were to play five Tests against each other at Lord's, Barbados, Cape Town, Eden Gardens and Sydney. The matches were later simulated. His teams were as follows:

England: Hutton*, Gooch, Dexter, May, Cowdrey, Botham, Knott+, Laker, Underwood, Trueman, Statham.

Rest of the World: Gavaskar, Barry Richards, Viv Richards*, Lara, Tendulkar, Sobers, Gilchrist+, Marshall, Warne, Lillee, Muralitharan.

After many years of reporting he said that Lillee was generally regarded as the best fast bowler of the period in question, followed by Marshall then Hadlee.

Like the ground selection.

 

[kyear2]

It really is hard to understand your logic. If not everything is covered by bat deeper, why do you have Gilchrist in place of Alan Knott or Healy or some other slightly better keeper?

I mean I literally addressed that in multiple posts over the past week, when I said that the wicketkeeper has literally become the 2nd all rounder slot.

I mentioned it in multiple posts where I discussed Knott over Taylor, Dujon over Murray etc, etc, where basically since the Invincibles every team has gone with the better batsman over the best pure keeper.

What I further said is that the balance has become seriously off, where batting has been weighted way too heavily against the keeping. I've been consistent about this, yes there is a balance, but that balance has to slant towards the keeping. A 60 / 40 perhaps.

Plus the difference with Gilchrist which I have stated multiple times is that he was a world class keeper, and to add to his claim, expertly kept to both Warne and McGrath during his career.

I would even go a step further and say that if Murali was the spinner, I would lean towards Knott, and at that point towards Imran as he could bat at 7 and allow Knotty at 8.

But with Gilly I'm good with Wasim along with Maco and Warne.

But as I've said, Gilly was a one of one, the only world class batsman who was also a world class keeper.

 

[smash84]

I mean I literally addressed that in multiple posts over the past week, when I said that the wicketkeeper has literally become the 2nd all rounder slot.

I mentioned it in multiple posts where I discussed Knott over Taylor, Dujon over Murray etc, etc, where basically since the Invincibles every team has gone with the better batsman over the best pure keeper.

What I further said is that the balance has become seriously off, where batting has been weighted way too heavily against the keeping. I've been consistent about this, yes there is a balance, but that balance has to slant towards the keeping. A 60 / 40 perhaps.

Plus the difference with Gilchrist which I have stated multiple times is that he was a world class keeper, and to add to his claim, expertly kept to both Warne and McGrath during his career.

I would even go a step further and say that if Murali was the spinner, I would lean towards Knott, and at that point towards Imran as he could bat at 7 and allow Knotty at 8.

But with Gilly I'm good with Wasim along with Maco and Warne.

But as I've said, Gilly was a one of one, the only world class batsman who was also a world class keeper.

That seems like a lot of words without actually addressing the question.

Even if Gilchrist kept expertly to McWarne, Healy did a better job. Healy was the better keeper.

So essentially you're saying that the margin of keeping that Healy or Knott is better than Gilchrist by is offset by the batting that Gilchrist brings.

That is exactly what the bat deep folks are arguing when bringing Imran in that the difference in bowling ability of Imran and McGrath is easily offset by the significantly better batting ability.

 

[kyear2]

In 2002 Christopher Martin-Jenkins selected England and Rest of the World XIs for The Times newspaper covering the period 1953-2002. The teams were to play five Tests against each other at Lord's, Barbados, Cape Town, Eden Gardens and Sydney. The matches were later simulated. His teams were as follows:

England: Hutton*, Gooch, Dexter, May, Cowdrey, Botham, Knott+, Laker, Underwood, Trueman, Statham.

Rest of the World: Gavaskar, Barry Richards, Viv Richards*, Lara, Tendulkar, Sobers, Gilchrist+, Marshall, Warne, Lillee, Muralitharan.

After many years of reporting he said that Lillee was generally regarded as the best fast bowler of the period in question, followed by Marshall then Hadlee.

Excellent post as usual

So am I to conject that the great Christopher Martin - Jenkins also thought that Barry Richards was at worst the 2nd best non British opener since 1953? That rates him above Greenidge, Simpson, surely Boycott, Anwar... Hayden also played a bit of his career in that era, before the pitches became pancakes.

Mark Nicholas also has that combination for his all time team, Gavaskar and Richards.

But when I do it....

The other point of note is that he went even more specialists friendly than I would, because I would have gone Hadlee over Lillee (if forced to go with two spinners)

I'm also not using this as a point over Imran, because with two spinners, he probably didn't see the need for reverse.

Sobers's crap bowling though takes on greater importance in this scenario.

The grounds are an interesting mix and a fair one. Possibly something we could use as a template going forward.

Would ask which team won the simulation, but they are so mismatched that it would be a pointless question.

 

[kyear2]

That seems like a lot of words without actually addressing the question.

Even if Gilchrist kept expertly to McWarne, Healy did a better job. Healy was the better keeper.

So essentially you're saying that the margin of keeping that Healy or Knott is better than Gilchrist by is offset by the batting that Gilchrist brings.

That is exactly what the bat deep folks are arguing when bringing Imran in that the difference in bowling ability of Imran and McGrath is easily offset by the significantly better batting ability.

Let shorten it then.

Since the times of Ames, the wicketkeeper portion has been an all rounder one. Period.

The bowling spots not so much, teams will always go with their best bowlers, with consideration for batting not going further than no. 8, if at all.

Even the team by CMJ that was just shared, showed scant regard to lower order batting, as are most similar teams. Even Coronis a couple hours told you he goes with the best bowlers, and Gilchrist, you had no such comments for him.

But I will summarize. Keeping is a all rounder position, has been for decades, where I disagree with the likes of Luffy, is the balance that they apply.
Bowling isn't, you go with your best bowling attack, which even the last poll here trended towards.

And forget McGrath over Imran (because you think it's personal about him), I'm choosing McGrath over Hadlee, who is a higher rated bowler than Imran and closer to McGrath.

 

[kyear2]

Like the ground selection.

Don't like the order, if listed order is what was suggested, but like the grounds.

 

[smash84]

Let shorten it then.

Since the times of Ames, the wicketkeeper portion has been an all rounder one. Period.

The bowling spots not so much, teams will always go with their best bowlers, with consideration for batting not going further than no. 8, if at all.

Even the team by CMJ that was just shared, showed scant regard to lower order batting, as are most similar teams. Even Coronis a couple hours told you he goes with the best bowlers, and Gilchrist, you had no such comments for him.

But I will summarize. Keeping is a all rounder position, has been for decades, where I disagree with the likes of Luffy, is the balance that they apply.
Bowling isn't, you go with your best bowling attack, which even the last poll here trended towards.

And forget McGrath over Imran (because you think it's personal about him), I'm choosing McGrath over Hadlee, who is a higher rated bowler than Imran and closer to McGrath.

I just won't pick McGrath over Hadlee. There is not much between them as bowlers. Hadlee far superior batsman. It's a no contest for me.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I just won't pick McGrath over Hadlee. There is not much between them as bowlers. Hadlee far superior batsman. It's a no contest for me.

Exactly this. If I won't pick Sachin over Sobers, I won't McGrath over Hadlee.

 

[peterhrt]

Would ask which team won the simulation, but they are so mismatched that it would be a pointless question.

Afraid I don't know anything about the simulation. They might have given England one win to keep the readers happy.

Seven years later CMJ submitted his all-time England XI to Cricinfo for their exercise. Six of his 1953-2002 side kept their places: Hutton, May, Botham, Knott, Laker and Trueman. They were joined by old-timers Hobbs, Hammond, Compton, Rhodes and Barnes.

 

[kyear2]

Afraid I don't know anything about the simulation. They might have given England one win to keep the readers happy.

Seven years later CMJ submitted his all-time England XI to Cricinfo for their exercise. Six of his 1953-2002 side kept their places: Hutton, May, Botham, Knott, Laker and Trueman. They were joined by old-timers Hobbs, Hammond, Compton, Rhodes and Barnes.

Did he also vote for the World XI as well, can't recall if he was one of the voters.

 

[kyear2]

Afraid I don't know anything about the simulation. They might have given England one win to keep the readers happy.

Seven years later CMJ submitted his all-time England XI to Cricinfo for their exercise. Six of his 1953-2002 side kept their places: Hutton, May, Botham, Knott, Laker and Trueman. They were joined by old-timers Hobbs, Hammond, Compton, Rhodes and Barnes.

Sorry, also seeing an article where he did a compilation XI for the 1953 to 2002 teams, but it's paywalled.

Any chance you would know what that one was?