The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Coronis]

Several factors play a role in someone’s batting form or decline. They did a great job while they are captain and you cannot ignore the role of captaincy on an individual. There are many captains whose batting declined after they were made captain that’s not the case with Lloyd and Gooch.

In that case I’ll take Lara or Sobers as captain. Then I can have someone who averages high as a captain and put in another batsman better than Lloyd! Everyone wins!

 

[CricketFan90s]

Ideally, you want the best attack possible. This means your 3 best pacers and your best spinner. Miller is not part of this group. Furthermore, in Australian XI, batting him at 8 and having him as the third pacer makes no sense (the only reason to do so would be batting) when the Australian batting is already clearly ahead of everyone else.

It do make sense, my argument is that in an all time XI you can fit in an allrounder as a 3rd bowler when you already have 3 greatest bowlers of all time. This gives them overwhelming advantage as a batting unit and as a bowling department it makes only little difference as Miller is only below Lindwall and Davidson by few factors. Don’t forget that Miller had better average than both these players in Ashes.

 

[Coronis]

It do make sense, my argument is that in an all time XI you can fit in an allrounder as a 3rd bowler when you already have 3 greatest bowlers of all time. This gives them overwhelming advantage as a batting unit and as a bowling department it makes only little difference as Miller is only below Lindwall and Davidson by few factors. Don’t forget that Miller had better average than both these players in Ashes.

They already have an overwhelming advantage as a batting unit, which makes it a moot point. Yes, replacing 1 of your 4 main bowlers with an inferior bowler will make a sizeable difference. Far larger than the gain you’d get from his batting at 8.

 

[CricketFan90s]

In that case I’ll take Lara or Sobers as captain. Then I can have someone who averages high as a captain and put in another batsman better than Lloyd! Everyone wins!

Then the debate comes next how good was Lara or sobers as captain compared to Lloyd ?

 

[Coronis]

Then the debate comes next how good was Lara or sobers as captain compared to Lloyd ?

whoosh. You’re missing the point, I was being sarcastic.

Lloyd was a great captain. But you already have another player, who is an easily superior batsman to Lloyd and a high quality captain - Viv (for all his other faults yes he was @kyear2 ).

You’re then trying to shoehorn Lloyd into the side over multiple better batsman (Headley, Walcott, Weekes) based on this. Its similar to the Miller discussion, you’re not understanding what a diminishing return is at all.

 

[CricketFan90s]

whoosh. You’re missing the point, I was being sarcastic.

Lloyd was a great captain. But you already have another player, who is an easily superior batsman to Lloyd and a high quality captain - Viv (for all his other faults yes he was @kyear2 ).

You’re then trying to shoehorn Lloyd into the side over multiple better batsman (Headley, Walcott, Weekes) based on this. Its similar to the Miller discussion, you’re not understanding what a diminishing return is at all.

Viv was never a better captain than Lloyd sorry. Lloyd built the team and was the pioneer to West Indies domination in 1970s and he had more wins you can check the stats. Don’t fight to win the debate and you need to cultivate respecting your opponent who can give you quality discussion. Diminishing return is your perceptual fallacy you are defending at any cost. Clive Lloyd had better winning record and Richards had better batting record as a non captain. Lloyd being a pioneer gets extra points as his ideas and legacy was carried by Viv. Check there away record and home record you will come to know Clive Lloyd was more efficient in winning matches compared to Viv ( he never lost a series). Coronis Kid I come up with facts you come up with your perceptual fallacy.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Don’t bring someone into this discussion like @kyear2

 

[Coronis]

Don’t bring someone into this discussion like @kyear2

lol. Clearly you missed the point of the tag its a well known running joke between myself and him re: Viv

Viv was never a better captain than Lloyd sorry. Lloyd built the team and was the pioneer to West Indies domination in 1970s and he had more wins you can check the stats. Don’t fight to win the debate and you need to cultivate respecting your opponent who can give you quality discussion. Diminishing return is your perceptual fallacy you are defending at any cost. Clive Lloyd had better winning record and Richards had better batting record as a non captain. Lloyd being a pioneer gets extra points as his ideas and legacy was carried by Viv. Check there away record and home record you will come to know Clive Lloyd was more efficient in winning matches compared to Viv ( he never lost a series). Coronis Kid I come up with facts you come up with your perceptual fallacy.

I never said Viv was a better captain than Lloyd did I? All I said was he was a high quality captain. Of course Viv had a better record, because Lloyd was captain during his peak and its well documented that Viv declined as he aged due to being a very hand-eye player. It didn’t have anything to do with his captaincy. You seem not to understand this correlation and are presuming causation.

You’re picking Lloyd as a batsman in this XI. You have 4 middle order slots available (3 if you’re considering Sobers as a specialist all rounder slot).

Either way, Lloyd is behind at the very least 5+ (7 for me) other batsmen for these 3-4 available slots. Especially in this ATG context, where multiple players on teams have captaincy experience, captaincy is a tertiary consideration.

 

[CricketFan90s]

My West Indies XI that can defeat any Team

lol. Clearly you missed the point of the tag its a well known running joke between myself and him re: Viv




I never said Viv was a better captain than Lloyd did I? All I said was he was a high quality captain. Of course Viv had a better record, because Lloyd was captain during his peak and its well documented that Viv declined as he aged due to being a very hand-eye player. It didn’t have anything to do with his captaincy. You seem not to understand this correlation and are presuming causation.

You’re picking Lloyd as a batsman in this XI. You have 4 middle order slots available (3 if you’re considering Sobers as a specialist all rounder slot).

Either way, Lloyd is behind at the very least 5+ (7 for me) other batsmen for these 3-4 available slots. Especially in this ATG context, where multiple players on teams have captaincy experience, captaincy is a tertiary consideration.

It makes a huge difference when you are playing the best teams in the world. Ganguly's Captaincy changed Indian Cricket, Border's Captaincy had a huge impact on Australia, you cannot imagine a 90s Pakistan Team with out the influence of Imran Khan. A good captain can reduce the averages of opposition by his good tactical decisions.

Recently in one of the interview Martin Crowe admitted that if he was not injured in semifinal 1992, they could have easily defended the target against pakistan and could have won the world cup ( I agree with him as New Zealand was too good in 1992 and could have easily defended the target)

A Strong Captain will bring that mental edge to the players.

I want Lloyd to come at No 5 as i expect Richards and Lara to play at no 3 and no 4, high up the order and Lloyd can support them and Sobers.

You have to look at Statistics but Lloyd is more of a player who will give them the mental edge coming at no 6 and he had an excellent record as a batsmen who was also a captain.

 

[Coronis]

My West Indies XI that can defeat any Team

It makes a huge difference when you are playing the best teams in the world. Ganguly's Captaincy changed Indian Cricket, Border's Captaincy had a huge impact on Australia, you cannot imagine a 90s Pakistan Team with out the influence of Imran Khan. A good captain can reduce the averages of opposition by his good tactical decisions.

Recently in one of the interview Martin Crowe admitted that if he was not injured in semifinal 1992, they could have easily defended the target against pakistan and could have won the world cup ( I agree with him as New Zealand was too good in 1992 and could have easily defended the target)

A Strong Captain will bring that mental edge to the players.

I want Lloyd to come at No 5 as i expect Richards and Lara to play at no 3 and no 4, high up the order and Lloyd can support them and Sobers.

You have to look at Statistics but Lloyd is more of a player who will give them the mental edge coming at no 6 and he had an excellent record as a batsmen who was also a captain.

Sure they would’ve. Or they would’ve lost earlier because Crowe was injured and would’ve dropped catches or let more runs slide.

Are you selecting Ganguly in an ATG Indian side?

The Windies side already have a good captain in Viv, they don’t need Lloyd, especially when he can be replaced with a far better batsman. The costs far outweigh the benefits.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Sure they would’ve. Or they would’ve lost earlier because Crowe was injured and would’ve dropped catches or let more runs slide.

Are you selecting Ganguly in an ATG Indian side?

The Windies side already have a good captain in Viv, they don’t need Lloyd, especially when he can be replaced with a far better batsman. The costs far outweigh the benefits.

We have MS Dhoni so don't need a Ganguly for now.

 

[CricketFan90s]

George Headley

Is Not Captain

1930-1954

21

38

3

2154

270*

61.54

10

5

2

Clive Lloyd

Is Captain

1974-1985

74

111

9

5233

242*

51.30

14

27

3

 

[CricketFan90s]

A Team has to become Stronger during the Captaincy of a Player and not become Weak. West Indies became Stronger during the Captaincy of Lloyd that is a sign of Great Captaincy. Observe his Away Record much superior to Richards.

 

[Qlder]

Viv was never a better captain than Lloyd sorry. Lloyd built the team and was the pioneer to West Indies domination in 1970s and he had more wins you can check the stats.....

....Check there away record and home record you will come to know Clive Lloyd was more efficient in winning matches compared to Viv ( he never lost a series).

How are you allowed to re-write history? West Indies did not have domination in the 1970's and Clive Lloyd's team was easily beaten 5-1 in the 1975/76 series in Australia captained by Greg Chappell.

WI only dominated in late 70'a in unofficial WSC and were not dominant in official games until 1979/80 series in Aus

 

[CricketFan90s]

How are you allowed to re-write history? West Indies did not have domination in the 1970's and Clive Lloyd's team was easily beaten 5-1 in the 1975/76 series in Australia captained by Greg Chappell.

WI only dominated in late 70'a in unofficial WSC and were not dominant in official games until 1979/80 series in Aus

You don’t follow the discussion properly and taking a side. Check the stats I posted and comment.

 

[Qlder]

Captaincy by Matches

	Matches	Won	Lost	Drawn
Clive Lloyd	45	23	3	19
Viv Richards	48	27	8	13

Captaincy by Series

	Series	Won	Lost	Drawn
Clive Lloyd	11	9	1	1
Viv Richards	12	7	0	5

Captaincy by Matches: Home

	Matches	Won	Lost	Drawn
Clive Lloyd	13	7	0	6
Viv Richards	23	15	2	6

Captaincy by Series: Home

	Series	Won	Lost	Drawn
Clive Lloyd	3	3	0	0
Viv Richards	6	5	0	1

Captaincy by Matches: Away

	Matches	Won	Lost	Draw
Clive Lloyd	32	16	3	13
Viv Richards	26	12	6	8

Captaincy by Series: Away

	Series	Won	Lost	Draw
Clive Lloyd	8	6	1	1
Viv Richards	6	3	0	3

Where are getting these wrong Stats from? Lloyd captained in 76 Tests (36W-12L-26D) and Richards 50 Tests (27W-8L-15D)

 

[Coronis]

Captaincy by Matches

	Matches	Won	Lost	Drawn
Clive Lloyd	45	23	3	19
Viv Richards	48	27	8	13

Captaincy by Series

	Series	Won	Lost	Drawn
Clive Lloyd	11	9	1	1
Viv Richards	12	7	0	5

Captaincy by Matches: Home

	Matches	Won	Lost	Drawn
Clive Lloyd	13	7	0	6
Viv Richards	23	15	2	6

Captaincy by Series: Home

	Series	Won	Lost	Drawn
Clive Lloyd	3	3	0	0
Viv Richards	6	5	0	1

Captaincy by Matches: Away

	Matches	Won	Lost	Draw
Clive Lloyd	32	16	3	13
Viv Richards	26	12	6	8

Captaincy by Series: Away

	Series	Won	Lost	Draw
Clive Lloyd	8	6	1	1
Viv Richards	6	3	0	3

Why are you conveniently removing some of their matches? To make Lloyd’s record look better?

A Team has to become Stronger during the Captaincy of a Player and not become Weak. West Indies became Stronger during the Captaincy of Lloyd that is a sign of Great Captaincy. Observe his Away Record much superior to Richards.

You do realise Lloyd had the stronger team, with better overall players?

 

[CricketFan90s]

Where are getting these wrong Stats from? Lloyd captained in 76 Tests (36W-12L-26D) and Richards 50 Tests (27W-8L-15D)

Thanks it was a mistake. Let me post it again

 

[Line and Length]

In my humble opinion, the most important factor in such a competition would be your pace attack, especially one that travels. Pace attack and middle orders are lynchpins of dynasties.

Trueman didn't travel especially well, Hammond was ATG, but against the 3 pace attacks in question, ummmmm. That leaves Barrington and Root?

Not saying they aren't 4th, and the openers aren't immense, just don't see them defeating the other 3 teams.

Let's not forget that touring sides went by boat in Trueman's era.

 

[Coronis]

Let's not forget that touring sides went by boat in Trueman's era.

Makes you understand why you wouldn’t want someone who was disliked along with you on the tour. Have to spend a lot more time around them.