The 4th Greatest Wicket keeper Batsman?

[kyear2]

Yeah no, Knott was one of the best keepers ever, plus he averaged 30 with the bat.

Some people seem to not understand the term wicket keeper batsman. There’s a reason wicket keeper is the first of those words.

This can't be that hard to grasp. Your primary job is to keep wicket, they've been few better than Knott at this, and none of them could bat better than him. The best bat of the elite keepers.

 

[kyear2]

Then he was shitty at home which is like 50% of the games to end up averaging 30 odd overall.

How is he miles ahead as a keeper, and what does that mean, Rizwan is as safe a keeper as it gets, anything above that is just bonus and not a deciding factor.

Hard disagree, those are the chances that win matches.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Low 30s average in the context of Knott's era was fine wasn't it? Not like he was useless with the bat.

 

[kyear2]

Assuming that you're reading through the whole thread, would like to see your reaction after you're finished.

Just did, haven't changed.

Engineer is one who gets overlooked a bit, but can't think of many more.
Walcott if not for the injury was also a potential candidate. He was actually initially selected as the keeper.

 

[kyear2]

No it is not, if it was teams would be going with player with better keeping skills instead of batting.

Foakes dropped, Saha dropped, teams know that wicket keeping is no more a specialist thing and thats what matters.

Specialist wicketkeepers are done for, finished , kicked into oblivion.

An ATG keeper, and yes I have as tough a metric and as short an arg list as anyone, and he's definitely on it, who averaged 32 with the bat is an ATG.
Would take him anyday over a Flower if the role is to hold the gloves.

 

[sayon basak]

Just did, haven't changed.

Engineer is one who gets overlooked a bit, but can't think of many more.
Walcott if not for the injury was also a potential candidate. He was actually initially selected as the keeper.

Didn't mean to say tha........ok whatever.

 

[sayon basak]

But yeah if you are saying whether I will swap Gilchrists keeping with Rizwan then yes, there’s hardly much difference there. Not significant enough to help us win more games.

@kyear2 I meant you to give your reaction on these.

 

[kyear2]

@kyear2 I meant you to give your reaction on these.

Gilly was a better wicketkeeper than Rizwan, think we've started to underrate his keeping because of how good a batter he was. He wasn't Healy nor Knott, but he was better than any of the names being floated.

He kept almost flawlessly to Warne and MacGill as well as to as varied a pace attack that there's been.

So yes, there's a difference between Gilly's keeping and Rizwan's.

 

[sayon basak]

Gilly was a better wicketkeeper than Rizwan, think we've started to underrate his keeping because of how good a batter he was. He wasn't Healy nor Knott, but he was better than any of the names being floated.

He kept almost flawlessly to Warne and McGill as well as to as varied a pace attack that there's been.

So yes, there's a difference between Gilly's keeping and Rizwan's.

As you voted for "others", who do you think is better than the ones mentioned?

 

[trundler]

Rizwan is a pretty good wicket keeper. He's not a batsman keeper like Prior or Haddin. He's superb against spin on turning decks and I've never seen him have a nightmare test. Modern bad fallacy going on. Gilly and Pant are better batsman but Rizwan is a top notch keeper.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Rizwan is a pretty good wicket keeper. He's not a batsman keeper like Prior or Haddin. He's superb against spin on turning decks and I've never seen him have a nightmare test. Modern bad fallacy going on. Gilly and Pant are better batsman but Rizwan is a top notch keeper.

Agreed but Gilchrist was still a better keeper anyway. His keeping to Warne and Macgill was amazing.

Fully agree with the comment that Gilly's keeping is underrated because he was so good with the bat and some people automatically therefore assume his keeping must've been not quite as good as though you're assigning skill-points to a character in an role playing game.

 

[kyear2]

As you voted for "others", who do you think is better than the ones mentioned?

Ummm, not sure. Three names come to mind and none of them would be popular.

Engineer
Walcott (if Sanga is eligible, then so is he) @JBMAC ,if I recall correctly said he was an excellent keeper, if I'm wrong he'll correct me.
Ian Healy, best pure keeper I've seen
Prasanna was also an underrated keeper - bat

Les Ames is also in with a shout, would choose him from among the names listed.

 

[kyear2]

Don't get the Andy Flower votes though tbh.

 

[Arachnodouche]

Could Pant end up at the same level as Gilchrist?

He'll probably end up with as many hundreds as Gilly even if he continues playing as keeper-bat. Probably more overall because he will transition to a pure batsman role like Sangakkara sooner than later with Jurel stepping in behind the stumps. I don't see his style of play or ability to impact games changing through it all, so in the grand scheme, he'll likely be as influential a batsman as Gilchrist if not more. No comparison between their keeping abilities though.

 

[Thala_0710]

Don't get the Andy Flower votes though tbh.

Kimber saying Flower was a better keeper than Gilly might have something to do with that

 

[kyear2]

He'll probably end up with as many hundreds as Gilly even if he continues playing as keeper-bat. Probably more overall because he will transition to a pure batsman role like Sangakkara sooner than later with Jurel stepping in behind the stumps. I don't see his style of play or ability to impact games changing through it all, so in the grand scheme, he'll likely be as influential a batsman as Gilchrist if not more. No comparison between their keeping abilities though.

Obviously haven't seen much of Jurel, but his keeping and batting has been more than impressive.

And yes, to be on the same level.as Gilly,.your keeping has to be in that level, don't think Pant's is.

 

[sayon basak]

Ummm, not sure. Three names come to mind and none of them would be popular.

Engineer
Walcott (if Sanga is eligible, then so is he) @JBMAC ,if I recall correctly said he was an excellent keeper, if I'm wrong he'll correct me.
Ian Healy, best pure keeper I've seen
Prasanna was also an underrated keeper - bat

Les Ames is also in with a shout, would choose him from among the names listed.

Really Forgot him tbh.

 

[sayon basak]

Kimber saying Flower was a better keeper than Gilly might have something to do with that

I don't think anybody would base their opinions on Kimber. Flower>Gilly as a wicket keeper might be the worst take imaginable.

 

[peterhrt]

Over-simplifying a bit, but one might consider three tiers of wicket-keeper, excluding batting:

Tier 1: Top-class. Snaps up half-chances others wouldn't take. Reputation unanimous.
Tier 2: Competent and safe standing up or back, without doing much out of the ordinary.
Tier 3: Generally OK standing back but more fallible up at the stumps (or occasionally vice versa). Includes more competent ones who spent most of their career in the outfield.

Then three levels of batsmen among keepers:

Tier 1: Test-level batsman.
Tier 2: All-rounder level batsman.
Tier 3: Lower-order level batsman.

That gives nine combinations. Who fits into which category won't find universal agreement, but some possible examples below. Wicket-keeping tier shown first.

1 + 1: Probably doesn't exist.
1 + 2: Knott
1 + 3: Out of fashion with more uniform pitches and less spin. Oldfield, Evans, Wasim Bari.

2 + 1: Gilchrist
2 + 2: Ames, Waite, Watling
2 + 3: Again out of fashion. Duckworth.

3 + 1: Flower, Pant, de Villiers
3 + 2: Jim Parks, Geraint Jones
3 + 3: Out of fashion. Ordinary keeper and lower-order bat.

 

[Thala_0710]

Over-simplifying a bit, but one might consider three tiers of wicket-keeper, excluding batting:

Tier 1: Top-class. Snaps up half-chances others wouldn't take. Reputation unanimous.
Tier 2: Competent and safe standing up or back, without doing anything out of the ordinary.
Tier 3: Generally OK standing back but more fallible up at the stumps (or occasionally vice versa). Includes more competent ones who spent most of their career in the outfield.

Then three levels of batsmen among keepers:

Tier 1: Test-level batsman.
Tier 2: All-rounder level batsman.
Tier 3: Lower-order level batsman.

That gives nine combinations. Who fits into which category won't find universal agreement, but some possible examples below. Wicket-keeping tier shown first.

1 + 1: Probably doesn't exist.
1 + 2: Knott
1 + 3: Out of fashion with more uniform pitches and less spin. Oldfield, Evans, Wasim Bari.

2 + 1: Gilchrist
2 + 2: Ames, Waite, Watling
2 + 3: Again out of fashion. Duckworth.

3 + 1: Flower, Pant, de Villiers
3 + 2: Jim Parks, Geraint Jones
3 + 3: Out of fashion. Ordinary keeper and lower-order bat.

Can put Akmal in the 3+3 category