Sunil Gavaskar vs Ricky Ponting

[Thala_0710]

I generally genuinely don't like the dominance argument. Specifically, I don't want my opener to dominate at all, rather play as many deliveries as possible; unless it's someone like Sehwag. Special Series is fair, a big reason why I infact rate him higher, but he also had a longer slump.

Yeah one more argument, I would want my opener to be a bit better vs pace even if it meant compromising a bit on his prowess against spin.
Sunny vs ATG against spin, but a player of great inns vs pace rather than a great player of pace I would say. This combo works better for a no 4.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah one more argument, I would want my opener to be a bit better vs pace even if it meant compromising a bit on his prowess against spin.
Sunny vs ATG against spin, but a player of great inns vs pace rather than a great player of pace I would say. This combo works better for a no 4.

Hmmm..... I understand your point but think in this particular scenario Sunny is actually better to pace and worse to spin (both by razor thin margins, probs bigger margin to spin) than Lara.

 

[Prince EWS]

Was literally the worst attack ever.

A bit far.

 

[Thala_0710]

Hmmm..... I understand your point but think in this particular scenario Sunny is actually better to pace and worse to spin (both by razor thin margins, probs bigger margin to spin) than Lara.

I would say that Lara was better against both though sunny has more hundreds against ATG quicks ofc.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I would say that Lara was better against both though sunny has more hundreds against ATG quicks ofc.

I don't think Lara was better against pace honestly. Had the better series against peak McGrath, but he did had a few technical limitations to pace and they did came to fruition more. Think Sunny to pace was more compact. And ofcourse, opened so a much harder job to pace.
And like, I do rate Lara higher. My point is really none of these explains a whole ass tier personally.

 

[kyear2]

I would say that Lara was better against both though sunny has more hundreds against ATG quicks ofc.

I want you to do me a favor, and take look at the pitches where Sunny succeeded.

He struggled vs Lillee, and only scored in the Caribbean vs Marshall and co in Trinidad and Guyana.

He wasn't good in quick conditions, not comparable even to Barry at the time. That's why he was called a fair weather fighter.

 

[kyear2]

A bit far.

Possibly yes, lol

 

[capt_Luffy]

Lol lol. 12 Centuries to ATG pacers all in "Fair weather". A 4th innings double ton in England is fair weather. Back to back centuries in Perth and Adelaide vs Peak Thomson is fairweather. Literally scoring 2 tons and a 50 vs Holding and Roberts in the Caribbean but not scoring in one match, means he was fairweather........

 

[Johan]

I love fairweather, it's all gloomy and cloudy and **** here.

 

[Thala_0710]

Lol lol. 12 Centuries to ATG pacers all in "Fair weather". A 4th innings double ton in England is fair weather. Back to back centuries in Perth and Adelaide vs Peak Thomson is fairweather. Literally scoring 2 tons and a 50 vs Holding and Roberts in the Caribbean but not scoring in one match, means he was fairweather........

I wouldn't call him fairweather. But I wouldn't say he was great vs pace either. Those tons you mentioned is why I said a player of great innings vs pace rather than a great player of pace.
By all that I've watched and read about Sunny, he has been described as perhaps the first Indian batter to be able to properly go toe to toe with the best pacers in the world. India had a legacy of of producing fine players of spin, but Gavaskar could play pace too. But Tendulkar was the first (and perhaps the only) truly great player of pace we've ever had. Gavaskar could battle with Marshall, Garner, Holding, Hadlee, Imran etc and come out on top but never really dominate them in the same way ATG players of pace can. This is further supported by Cricviz stats which I stated earlier, which give his avg against spin in test cricket to be 100+ (meaning his avg against pace would be not that impressive). Sunny himself said that facing spin at test level was easier then than FC level where there were more spin frienly tracks and perhaps the average spinner was better too (70s-80s era).
Hence all of this makes me believe that Sunny was ATG against but a bit lower against pace.S till 1 of the only 4 ATG openers though. Still the same tier as Lara for me too (though it's close).

 

[Johan]

Sunny certainly flourished more on slower wickets but that's not really a negative, his greatest strength was the fact that he was almost impossible to dismiss when the conditions were to his liking or once he got going, but it's not like he was inept when the going got tough, his hundred at old Trafford, the 79 England tour, his ton against an obviously cheating Imran and so forth, his consistency was gone but from the standard of ATG batters he was decent enough on tougher tracks as well. I'd argue he was better and more proven on tougher wickets than quite a few ATGs.

 

[akilana]

Gavaskar is Sachin-Lara tier

No. Lara is a tier above.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Was literally the worst attack ever.

Even after that series he wasn't rated by anyone.

It is still good considering it was his debut.
He was rated by Sobers… even Gavaskar recalls when Bradman in 71-72 enquired about him after that tour for the selection for the Rest of the World.
Gavaskar Calypso was composed on his honor.

Moreover it was the first time India won a Test Series overseas in top tier nation. That deserves credit.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Yeah one more argument, I would want my opener to be a bit better vs pace even if it meant compromising a bit on his prowess against spin.
Sunny vs ATG against spin, but a player of great inns vs pace rather than a great player of pace I would say. This combo works better for a no 4.

That was a very good point.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Lol lol. 12 Centuries to ATG pacers all in "Fair weather". A 4th innings double ton in England is fair weather. Back to back centuries in Perth and Adelaide vs Peak Thomson is fairweather. Literally scoring 2 tons and a 50 vs Holding and Roberts in the Caribbean but not scoring in one match, means he was fairweather........

Considering how effective were Marshall, Holding and Daniel in India in 1983, I would like to include that performance too. Vengsarkar also played well.

 

[Coronis]

You mean when he was in India?

He's also called Weekes the best he's ever seen.

Think he's also called Gupte the greatest spinner?

Sunny relatively recently also called Garry the best batsman he's ever seen, and specially said over Sachin and Virat of all people.

Are you going with that?

That's why people go with consensus and not one person.

Lillee said Barry was better and wasn't kissing up to anyone. So did Thompson. Graeme Pollock and Mike Procter also called Barry the best batsmen they've ever seen.

The list for Barry is actually longer than Sunny's.

Bradman also called him the best opener he'd seen.

Do you want me to keep going?

Sobers’ peer rating doesn’t count.

But the other guys rating does count.

And here I thought you respected Sobers.

 

[debraj72]

Lol lol. 12 Centuries to ATG pacers all in "Fair weather". A 4th innings double ton in England is fair weather. Back to back centuries in Perth and Adelaide vs Peak Thomson is fairweather. Literally scoring 2 tons and a 50 vs Holding and Roberts in the Caribbean but not scoring in one match, means he was fairweather........

Peak thompson? wasn't it like that, thompson got an injury in 1976 Pakistan series and he was never the same bowler he used to be?i think ,instead of 1977-78 aus series,you could mention his performance in 1982-83 away series in Pakistan

 

[capt_Luffy]

Peak thompson? wasn't it like that, thompson got injury in 1976 Pakistan series and he was never the same bowler he used to be?i think ,instead of 1977-78 aus series,you could mention his performance in 1982-83 away series in Pakistan

Not really. Thompson's stats were excellent, and practically the same, till 79. And given he debuted in 74, till 76 would had been a really short career. His stats took a nose dive from 81 onwards. And more importantly, his results in the series on question was excellent.
Kyear2 won't rate that Pakistan series, he would consider it "fair weather" or "slow wicket", no matter how destructive Imran was.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

I wouldn't call him fairweather. But I wouldn't say he was great vs pace either. Those tons you mentioned is why I said a player of great innings vs pace rather than a great player of pace.
By all that I've watched and read about Sunny, he has been described as perhaps the first Indian batter to be able to properly go toe to toe with the best pacers in the world. India had a legacy of of producing fine players of spin, but Gavaskar could play pace too. But Tendulkar was the first (and perhaps the only) truly great player of pace we've ever had. Gavaskar could battle with Marshall, Garner, Holding, Hadlee, Imran etc and come out on top but never really dominate them in the same way ATG players of pace can. This is further supported by Cricviz stats which I stated earlier, which give his avg against spin in test cricket to be 100+ (meaning his avg against pace would be not that impressive). Sunny himself said that facing spin at test level was easier then than FC level where there were more spin frienly tracks and perhaps the average spinner was better too (70s-80s era).
Hence all of this makes me believe that Sunny was ATG against but a bit lower against pace.S till 1 of the only 4 ATG openers though. Still the same tier as Lara for me too (though it's close).

Considering how Indian Batsmen played pace before Gavaskar (After maybe Merchant and Hazare) it seems fine labelling Gavaskar was the first to play them well. He played them fine upto a respectable extent. Viswanath, Amarnath and Vengsarkar also played them well upto an extent. Ecspecially Amarnath for Pure pace and hostile bounce as his peer review suggests but he couldn’t do anything atleast mediocre in the flat subcontinent pitches.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Considering how Indian Batsmen played pace before Gavaskar (After maybe Merchant and Hazare) it seems fine labelling Gavaskar was the first to play them well. He played them fine upto a respectable extent. Viswanath, Amarnath and Vengsarkar also played them well upto an extent. Ecspecially Amarnath for Pure pace and hostile bounce as his peer review suggests but he couldn’t do anything atleast mediocre in the flat subcontinent pitches.

Shoot peer review, Amarnath in WI 83 is the best batting series by any Indian Ever, and it wasn't even a one off. Had he batted half as well in India as he did away, he will be a legit contender for a Top 20 spot.