Steve Smith vs Brian Lara

[Johan]

nothing, Smith/Viv/Sachin/Sobers have no flaw in their records

 

[DrWolverine]

Sobers has an obvious flaw - NewZealand.

He toured NZ twice and averages 15 in 7 Tests

He has an average of 23 in 12 Tests against them

 

[Johan]

Who cares about New Zealand from the 1950s and 60s

 

[DrWolverine]

Nice argument

 

[Johan]

nah, genuinely, who gives a **** about New Zealand from 50s-60s? Great players don't care for weaker countries a lot of the times, IE look at Root's and Smith's record against Ban and Ireland

 

[DrWolverine]

Sunil Gavaskar has an almost perfect record as well.

vs Eng : Avg of 38 in 38 Tests
vs NZ : Avg of 43 in 9 Tests
vs Aus : Avg of 51 in 20 Tests
vs Pak : Avg of 55 in 24 Tests
vs SL : Avg of 66 in 7 Tests
vs WI : Avg of 66 in 27 Tests

in SL : Avg of 37 in 3 Tests
in Eng : Avg of 41 in 16 Tests
in NZ : Avg of 43 in 6 Tests
in Ind : Avg of 50 in 65 Tests
in Aus : Avg of 51 in 11 Tests
in Pak : Avg of 58 in 11 Tests
in WI : Avg of 70 in 13 Tests

And he was an opener

 

[Johan]

his Eng and NZ record is a hole

 

[subshakerz]

I feel this gets a bit lost because the great matchwinning innings in latter innings are rarer and more remembered, as well as obviously being towards the end of the match, while its easy to get caught up and forget earlier contributions. But in the long run the first innings runs lead to more sustained success. The game can often already be decided at that point, whereas first innings runs will always matter and in the majority of cases, set the tone for the match.

I have argued this for bowlers as well. Folks make a big deal of Murali and Warne cleaning up in the second half of a test but I argue setting up the game in the first half is a bit more important.

However, I will say for a batter it is a feather in the cap to be able to have a fine record in the 4th innings when batting is most difficult.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Hutton has a perfect record as well, and so did Allan Border (almost).

 

[DrWolverine]

Joe Root averages 25 in Bang in 2 Tests

If he averages 25 in Bang after two tours, that’s a flaw

 

[Coronis]

Who cares about New Zealand from the 1950s and 60s

imo failing against a weak team is far worse and less excusable than failing against a good team. Similarly, succeeding against a good team is far better and more praiseworthy than succeeding against a weak team.

 

[DrWolverine]

How is Gavaskar averaging 43 in NZ a hole in his record?

 

[Johan]

Hutton has a perfect record as well, and so did Allan Border (almost).

**** Border.

 

[subshakerz]

nothing, Smith/Viv/Sachin/Sobers have no flaw in their records

I agree. They form a clear tier.

 

[DrWolverine]

Gavaskar’s record of 38 against England isn’t great but if that is the only hole in his record, then he is really great

 

[Coronis]

How is Gavaskar averaging 43 in NZ a hole in his record?

Bit better than Viv in NZ iirc.

 

[capt_Luffy]

his Eng and NZ record is a hole

I don't think you can say averaging 43 in and against NZ is a hole really..... Sure, could had done better vs Hadlee away, but tough to say it was hole (Hadlee played all but 1 of those matches).

England, meh. 5 tours, 1 ATG, 1 Good, 1 Alright, 1 poor (2nd series, quite young) and 1 bad. His English home record is worse, but has some great innings and series there as well. Overall, no way you can count them a hole and not Richards in NZ

 

[sayon basak]

Definitely possible, lack of sleep makes a person's everything worse, far worse actually.

@capt_Luffy got it?

 

[subshakerz]

Who cares about New Zealand from the 1950s and 60s

Yeah it's irrelevant.

 

[Johan]

I don't think you can say averaging 43 in and against NZ is a hole really..... Sure, could had done better vs Hadlee away, but tough to say it was hole (Hadlee played all but 1 of those matches).

England, meh. 5 tours, 1 ATG, 1 Good, 1 Alright, 1 poor (2nd series, quite young) and 1 bad. His English home record is worse, but has some great innings and series there as well. Overall, no way you can count them a hole and not Richards in NZ

Ok Yeah, his record against Hadlee is a hole, nothing that he made a hundred against Collinge who has a surprisingly good home record (check it out)

England, meh, that's definitely a hole if you ask me, averaging 41 in England after an ATG tour and struggling somehow with England at home, and then that failiure against England at home in 1985 leading to England beating india in India when they were nowhere near good enough to do so, it's definitely the mark against him.