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South Africa team selection

MrPrez

International Debutant
Not sure what to make of Rabada with the bat. He has a good eye and a reasonable technique, but he has never made a 50 in any top level cricket. Think there is definitely some room for improvement there, but I haven't seen quite enough of him with the stick to make a informed judgement
It feels like coaches aren't taking the batting of tail-enders too seriously these days in SA.

There was a point where Steyn was trying to develop into a genuine number 8, but that never came to fruition. Rabada looks decent enough with the bat but also needs to be coached. Same went for Morkel.

All three of them had good enough technique to become useful. None really did.
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
SeamUp and I have had this conversation before. I think we lack a genuine batting allrounder, and it would be nice if our bowlers could add a few more runs. But I think that the quality of our batting and bowling skills (up until very recently maybe) has made the bits and pieces allrounders that we started off with after readmission not as they used to be. LO's Cronje/Kuiper would be great at 6 as finishers and able to bowl 5 overs, but that much better than Duminy? Not convinced. And only reason we can even really talk about our number 7 position as a batting allrounder is because we have a wk that opens and is as good as any batsmen in the world which we never had before.

We got spoilt big time with Kallis and Pollock (and Klusener for a short while) whose primary skill could stand up to the best in the world.
 
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Dendarii

International Debutant
Not sure what to make of Rabada with the bat. He has a good eye and a reasonable technique, but he has never made a 50 in any top level cricket. Think there is definitely some room for improvement there, but I haven't seen quite enough of him with the stick to make a informed judgement
Rabada always looks good when he's at the crease but that doesn't translate into runs. He's a bit like the Duminy of the bowlers in that regard.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
SeamUp and I have had this conversation before. I think we lack a genuine batting allrounder, and it would be nice if our bowlers could add a few more runs. But I think that the quality of our batting and bowling skills (up until very recently maybe) has made the bits and pieces allrounders that we started off with after readmission not as they used to be. LO's Cronje/Kuiper would be great at 6 as finishers and able to bowl 5 overs, but that much better than Duminy? Not convinced. And only reason we can even really talk about our number 7 position as a batting allrounder is because we have a wk that opens and is as good as any batsmen in the world which we never had before.

We got spoilt big time with Kallis and Pollock (and Klusener for a short while) whose primary skill could stand up to the best in the world.
Cronje and Kuiper would get into the SA team on their batting. Their bowling was only secondary but it more than did a job. Which is what you want really. Kallis was a rarity. Ihope Mulder can be a Rice/McMillan who were in my opinion the best all-rounders in the world during a part of their careers which would be good enough.

I would probably say Andrew Hall & Van der Wath were never test cricketers but verygood limited overs one's. Are those bits and pieces.

In professional sport today, if you are talented enough and work hard enough on your main skill you have plenty time to work on the other. For some reason our bowlers with batting ability to improve aren't doing it.
 

Dendarii

International Debutant
LO's Cronje/Kuiper would be great at 6 as finishers and able to bowl 5 overs, but that much better than Duminy? Not convinced.
If you go by their career bowling averages then possibly they were better than Duminy.

Duminy
First-class: 41.06, Tests:38.11
List A: 43.45, ODIs: 45.32

Cronje
First-class: 34.43, Tests: 29.95
List A: 33.50, ODIs: 34.78

Kuiper
First-class: 29.73
List A: 24.49, Tests: 28.77
 

SeamUp

International Coach
If you go by their career bowling averages then possibly they were better than Duminy.

Duminy
First-class: 41.06, Tests:38.11
List A: 43.45, ODIs: 45.32

Cronje
First-class: 34.43, Tests: 29.95
List A: 33.50, ODIs: 34.78

Kuiper
First-class: 29.73
List A: 24.49, Tests: 28.77
Suppose it is the difference between spin and seam in bowling in SA ?

Both bowled medium outties with some cutters now and then.
 
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MrPrez

International Debutant
Suppose it is the difference between spin and seam in bowling in SA ?

Both bowled medium outties with some cutters now and then.
I'd argue it's a bit more than that; that while that contributes, Duminy is weaker than both of them.

However, I think he has a higher potential than either - just one that was never reached.

This may get me flak but I think he could have been as good as someone like Boje with the ball if he'd focused hard on doing so.
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Cronje and Kuiper would get into the SA team on their batting. Their bowling was only secondary but it more than did a job. Which is what you want really. Kallis was a rarity. Ihope Mulder can be a Rice/McMillan who were in my opinion the best all-rounders in the world during a part of their careers which would be good enough.

I would probably say Andrew Hall & Van der Wath were never test cricketers but verygood limited overs one's. Are those bits and pieces.

In professional sport today, if you are talented enough and work hard enough on your main skill you have plenty time to work on the other. For some reason our bowlers with batting ability to improve aren't doing it.
I`m hoping Mulder becomes a McMillan type player batting 6/7 for SA.

If you go by their career bowling averages then possibly they were better than Duminy.

Duminy
First-class: 41.06, Tests:38.11
List A: 43.45, ODIs: 45.32

Cronje
First-class: 34.43, Tests: 29.95
List A: 33.50, ODIs: 34.78

Kuiper
First-class: 29.73
List A: 24.49, Tests: 28.77
Possibly; I`m not saying that Cronje/Kuiper would not be the best option at 6 nowadays (in a struggling SA ODI team); I am saying that their numbers are similar to Duminys. Cronje/Kuiper never had their positions questioned (and still regarded as great options), Duminy has had a question mark his entire career. Partly because people felt he was a better player than he showed but also because the competition was tougher on the batting front imo.
 

MrPrez

International Debutant
Possibly; I`m not saying that Cronje/Kuiper would not be the best option at 6 nowadays (in a struggling SA ODI team); I am saying that their numbers are similar to Duminys. Cronje/Kuiper never had their positions questioned (and still regarded as great options), Duminy has had a question mark his entire career. Partly because people felt he was a better player than he showed but also because the competition was tougher on the batting front imo.
In Tests, and quite rightly so given his Test stats, but in ODIs I don't think he's really had much of question mark at all.
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I clearly remember us back in the 90's and early 00's having issues in both Test and LO cricket, where we ended up at 150 for 5/6 and our last 4 wickets would double the score because of our 'all-rounder' depth, which made us competitive. Lack of true quality in the top 6 caused us issues. We then moved to a position of having a top 6 that could hold anybody, and a bowling attack that was fantastic even if not all could hold a bat like the old days.

Now we are looking around for all-rounders, and discussing all-rounders. Yes, I think we need a batting all-rounder at 6/7 for balance, but the real issue is that our top six is faltering, I think the top 6 will be sorted soonish, because we have some real talented youngsters in the 20-25 year age group making a mark. But I don't think that the nostalgia over all-rounders is the right way to think. From a stats point of view, we have Morris, Frylinck, Smuts, Berhardien, Pretorious, McLaren (and a number of others) that have similar stats to the other guys we talk about from the 90's. And none of them are really anything but outside considerations for our LO's team nowadays, and rightly so.

List of truly great SA allrounders.

PreWWII
Sinclair
Goddard
Nourse
Faulkner

Post WWII
Goddard
Barlow
Procter
Rice

Since readmission
MacMillan
Klusener
Pollock
Kallis

If Mulder takes on the role for the Test/ODI team, and Andile can take the Klusener type role for the LO's team we pretty much keeping on track for great all-rounders.
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
In Tests, and quite rightly so given his Test stats, but in ODIs I don't think he's really had much of question mark at all.
He was questioned over his LO's role near the end of his Test career. Retired from tests and started performing in LO's again.
 

Dendarii

International Debutant
Bob Wolmer preferred a lower order that could bat. It doesn't seem to be a requirement for Ottis.
Is that a consequence of having a coach who was bowler and so he favours a bowling-dominated strategy? Or is it just playing to our current strengths i.e. our fast bowling stocks being so good at the moment?
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Is that a consequence of having a coach who was bowler and so he favours a bowling-dominated strategy? Or is it just playing to our current strengths i.e. our fast bowling stocks being so good at the moment?
Mickey Arthur made the decision to leave out Shaun Pollock and go with 3 quicks and a spinner who really couldn't score a 50 regularly. I would say whilst he changed the game plan with Graeme Smith - a younger Shaun Pollock would have got in for his bowling a lone and Procter would do so too. Same would go for Kallis, Rice, McMillan, Barlow, Goddard getting in for their batting a lone.

Maybe it is a question of coaching today at youth level and deeper issues? Why has their been changes if there has been (expression or hogging duel roles :) ) or is just we were spoilt with freaks and have run dry ?

So whilst Otis may love his fast bowlers, if he had a peak Shaun Pollock now he would be picking him still.
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Maybe it is a question of coaching today at youth level and deeper issues? Why has their been changes if there has been (expression or hogging duel roles :) ) or is just we were spoilt with freaks and have run dry ?
It is not even that much of a dry run, Kallis retired 5 years ago, Pollock 5 years before that, McMillan '98 (apparently)? Replacing Kallis was never going to be easy. Mulder is by far our best chance at a true WC all rounder since Kallis retired.
 

Bolo

State Captain
Suppose it is the difference between spin and seam in bowling in SA ?

Both bowled medium outties with some cutters now and then.
Mostly the fact that duminy lacks control and bowls a lit of bad balls. Mych more difficult task for him than a medium pacer, but he still could have got it better. He would have needed to focus on it, including game overs to develop control.
 

GRAB

First Class Debutant
Quotas vaguely waived for WC... Not sure if it really will make much of a difference to our final line-up as Ngidi, Rabada, Phehlukwayo, Duminy, Tahir are already all-but locks for the first eleven...
 

Rasimione

U19 Captain
Quotas vaguely waived for WC... Not sure if it really will make much of a difference to our final line-up as Ngidi, Rabada, Phehlukwayo, Duminy, Tahir are already all-but locks for the first eleven...
Our selectors have done really well considering the challenges they've had to face.
 

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It is not even that much of a dry run, Kallis retired 5 years ago, Pollock 5 years before that, McMillan '98 (apparently)? Replacing Kallis was never going to be easy. Mulder is by far our best chance at a true WC all rounder since Kallis retired.

minor point but why the 'apparently' re McMillan? Did you mandela effect- misremember him retiring much earlier/later?
 

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