Should Brett Lee be selected for the Ashes?

[Richard]

As you know Brett Lee is the fastest Aussie bowler

Not even close any more, Tait is clearly the quicker of the two these days.

(BTW I'm not advocating the selection of either, simply mentioning that purely as far as pace is concerned, Tait > Lee)

 

[DaRick]

Not even close any more, Tait is clearly the quicker of the two these days.

(BTW I'm not advocating the selection of either, simply mentioning that purely as far as pace is concerned, Tait > Lee)

Johnson may even be quicker now.

 

[Manee]

Not even close any more, Tait is clearly the quicker of the two these days.

(BTW I'm not advocating the selection of either, simply mentioning that purely as far as pace is concerned, Tait > Lee)

Johnson may even be quicker now.

Hate to continue this off topic conversation, but in terms of pace in Test cricket, it'll have to be...
1. Johnson (consistently 142kph+)
2. Tait (Up to over 150kph occasionally, often down to under 140kph)
3. Siddle/Lee (from 140-150kph)

 

[social]

Hate to continue this off topic conversation, but in terms of pace in Test cricket, it'll have to be...
1. Johnson (consistently 142kph+)
2. Tait (Up to over 150kph occasionally, often down to under 140kph)
3. Siddle/Lee (from 140-150kph)

It would actually be

1. Johnson - regular 150

2. Siddle - regular 145-150

3. Lee - very rare that he gets above 145

Tait is the quickest in the world but only for a few balls and not a test option

 

[scorpiogal]

Clearly you're kidding. I really hate when people see pace where there is none (see Elgland Ashes '05 where amazingly all their medium quicks became RF when they won but RFM when the got whitewashed in '06)

Siddle NEVER bowls consistenly quick, so above 145 is rare with him. Johnson too. Lee has been bowling above 145 just as often as these two lately. And the thing is, he's old now. At their age, he was ripping it up.

 

[scorpiogal]

Noooo not the rolleyes

I know you didn't advocate any particular bowler ahead of Lee, but you did say he "doesn't deserve to be in the starting XI" which obviously means you thought at least one of the players I mentioned did (unless you were going to pick someone different again, in which case my point that they've done little in FC/Test match cricket to prove they're a better option than Lee applies)

1. He'll have 2/3 FC games under his belt going into the first test, which along with numerous T20 games is good enough for me for a bowler of Lee's experience and quality. It's also worth noting, that the time he's had off has probably been just as much a help to him as it has a hinderence given the workload the Australia bowlers have had since they left to play in India 7/8 months ago.

2. He may have a poor record in England, but at least he's bowled there (Quite unlike Hilfenhorse), and I'd back him to defy that record and average under 30 given that how he will/would be used now, would be quite differen to previous times he bowled in england.

3. Lee's poor series against SA (and India to a certain extent, as that's where the gastro started....) really needs to be put into perspective. The bloke was quite clearly still suffering his his bout of gastro in India, and had a foot injury to boot. The fact that he was able to bowl quite well against NZ is a testament to him given how many things he had going against him.

4. Hilfenhaus had conditions that were tailormade for him in SA, and only managed 7 wickets in 3 tests @ 52. I like Hilfenhaus as a player, and want him to do well (always have), but there's no chance in hell he's a better bowler than Lee at this stage.

I'd have to agree totally. Hilfenhaus hasn't impressed me at all. I can't even remember what he did in Dubai. Btw, what's the go on Siddle? How's his rehab? Anyone know whether he's started bowling yet?

 

[social]

Clearly you're kidding. I really hate when people see pace where there is none (see Elgland Ashes '05 where amazingly all their medium quicks became RF when they won but RFM when the got whitewashed in '06)

Siddle NEVER bowls consistenly quick, so above 145 is rare with him. Johnson too. Lee has been bowling above 145 just as often as these two lately. And the thing is, he's old now. At their age, he was ripping it up.

Your TV needs repairing - it's still tuned to 2007

Lee bowled consistently quickly on precisely ONE occasion in the last year and that was at Adelaide against NZ and it was literally the odd ball

Other than that (India and SA in Oz), he was largely in the 130s (and inaccurate ****e btw)

Siddle spent long periods in the mid to high 140s at home and away vs SA from Sydney on

Johnson is EASILY the quickest bowler playing regular test cricket at the moment

Doesnt guarantee them success, but both Siddle and Johnson are much more scary pace-wise than anything we've seen fro Lee for ages

 

[Trumpers_Ghost]

Your TV needs repairing - it's still tuned to 2007

Lee bowled consistently quickly on precisely ONE occasion in the last year and that was at Adelaide against NZ and it was literally the odd ball

Other than that (India and SA in Oz), he was largely in the 130s (and inaccurate ****e btw)

Siddle spent long periods in the mid to high 140s at home and away vs SA from Sydney on

Johnson is EASILY the quickest bowler playing regular test cricket at the moment

Doesnt guarantee them success, but both Siddle and Johnson are much more scary pace-wise than anything we've seen fro Lee for ages

yes that line is very much on the money.

I'd say that Siddle's pace is a little variable, usually about 144, often down to 140, but his effort balls are 150; this is very simialr to Lee of now (well guessing that because its been a while since he bowled at full fitness).

 

[scorpiogal]

Actually, I'm looking at Lee bowl as we speak. And it's his 1st over, 4th ball is 147.9kph. And the time is 10:51 AM, it's the 20th of May in 2009. Hmmm

 

[scorpiogal]

second over, 4th ball, 149.6 kph. I could do this all day.

 

[Trumpers_Ghost]

Good to see

 

[social]

second over, 4th ball, 149.6 kph. I could do this all day.

White ball, meaningless match = B Lee bowling quick

Let me know when he does it in a test match because that's what the others do

BTW, I dont wish him any harm but he's 4th choice at best and his record in England WHEN HE WAS AT HIS PEAK says he shouldnt even be that

 

[Richard]

Clearly you're kidding. I really hate when people see pace where there is none (see Elgland Ashes '05 where amazingly all their medium quicks became RF when they won but RFM when the got whitewashed in '06)

Not really. Harmison was fast and crap in 2005 and fast and crap in 2006/07; Flintoff was fast and magnificent in 2005 and fast and decent in 2006/07; Hoggard was fast-medium and moderate-and-occasionally-brilliant in 2005 and fast-medium and moderate-and-occasionally-brilliant in 2006/07; Jones was fast and briefly devastating in 2005 and didn't play in 2006/07; Anderson was fast-medium and dreadful in 2006/07 and didn't play in 2005; Mahmood was fast and uttely diabolical in 2006/07 same as every other time he's taken the Test field and didn't play in 2005 (thank God!!!).

So in essence extreme pace had nothing to do with whether one bowler was successful or not in either series.

 

[aussie]

Not really. Harmison was fast and crap in 2005 and fast and crap in 2006/07; Flintoff was fast and magnificent in 2005 and fast and decent in 2006/07; Hoggard was fast-medium and moderate-and-occasionally-brilliant in 2005 and fast-medium and moderate-and-occasionally-brilliant; Jones was fast and briefly devastating in 2005 and didn't play in 2006/07; Anderson was fast-medium and dreadful in 2006/07 and didn't play in 2005; Mahmood was fast and uttely diabolical in 2006/07 same as every other time he's taken the Test field and didn't play in 2005 (thank God!!!).

So in essence extreme pace had nothing to do with whether one bowler was successful or not in either series.

...Bullettt up Richard

 

[scorpiogal]

So in essence extreme pace had nothing to do with whether one bowler was successful or not in either series.

Then why are we worried about Lee's pace?

The argument that old-man Lee hardly bowls 'fast' anymore doesn't hold then. His pace doesn't matter.


The fact is Siddle is no tearaway, especially for his age. And how exciting, Siddle the diidle hasn't started bowling yet and people are obsessing about Lee.

 

[scorpiogal]

White ball, meaningless match = B Lee bowling quick

Let me know when he does it in a test match because that's what the others do

BTW, I dont wish him any harm but he's 4th choice at best and his record in England WHEN HE WAS AT HIS PEAK says he shouldnt even be that

What's the diffrence with speeds in test and limited? Don't play dumb. It's speed, not swing, buttboy.The thing we'll need to see is if he has the stamina to sustain that speed.

I won't need to let you know buddy. Lee and the selectors will, when he's automatically chosen. It's gonna happen, don't believe a word of Hilditch's "form not reputation" bull.

And then the silence will become deafening as it usually does in here.

 

[Richard]

Then why are we worried about Lee's pace?

The argument that old-man Lee hardly bowls 'fast' anymore doesn't hold then. His pace doesn't matter.

Not enormously so, no, it doesn't. I've said time and again that "fast" (ie, 140kph+) pace is overrated - you can be good, and even exceptional, without it - there are more important traits to possess.

However, Lee has often been crap when bowling at 140kph+ and whether he bowls fast or fast-medium is unlikely to impact upon whether he's crap or outstanding in this Ashes. What matters is his areas and how much he gets the ball to do.

 

[Richard]

And then the silence will become deafening as it usually does in here.

"As it usually does in here" after 8 posts, eh?

 

[scorpiogal]

Not enormously so, no, it doesn't. I've said time and again that "fast" (ie, 140kph+) pace is overrated - you can be good, and even exceptional, without it - there are more important traits to possess.

However, Lee has often been crap when bowling at 140kph+ and whether he bowls fast or fast-medium is unlikely to impact upon whether he's crap or outstanding in this Ashes. What matters is his areas and how much he gets the ball to do.

Eeeer yeah. That's what we're waiting on. For Lee to play some FC games in England. Then we'll know. There's no point in arguing whether Lee should make the 1st XI based on form or match fitness, cause if that's the case then the same would apply to Siddle, who's been doing very well hiding the fact that he hasn't returned to bowling yet.

 

[scorpiogal]

"As it usually does in here" after 8 posts, eh?

I'm on here often. Just never posted.