Shane Warne vs Curtly Ambrose

[smash84]

If you're asking me, I abstained from that particular comparison. There are some comparisons I'm not that invested in and are too close for me to make a real decision. Imran and Warne are close bowling wise (as are Imran and Ambrose and Warne and Ambrose fwiw). I voted for Ambrose here because A. I'm biased and B. I saw Ambrose run through class Australian lineups the best of his time, in a way i didn't see Warne do.

Honestly, your takes are fine. I can imagine if someone abstains in such a comparison because these bowlers are close.

What I find weird is that folks who take Warne over Imran won't take Warne over Ambrose. I don't see the argument of Warne > Imran but not Warne > Ambrose. All 3 bowlers are fairly close IMO, but fast bowlers tend to have an inherent advantage in these comparisons. They are just more destructive and far less condition-dependent. Spinners obviously can bowl longer but are usually easier to deal with than great fast bowlers.

Imran has plenty going for him even in a head to head with Ambrose too. Imran has 10 fers and match winning performances in England, Australia, West Indies (only if you talk about away performances, he has 3 more 10 fers at home as well) and generally has great output at a slightly higher average. Ambrose was more miserly and much better against Australia but he also was terrible against India. So it's not like it's a totally one-sided contest; it's close. What I find annoying is the transparent agenda of some folks.

Which is why I am genuinely interested in knowing why Warne > Imran but not Ambrose. I am not sure I quite understand how this works,

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Honestly, your takes are fine. I can imagine if someone abstains in such a comparison because these bowlers are close.

What I find weird is that folks who take Warne over Imran won't take Warne over Ambrose. I don't see the argument of Warne > Imran but not Warne > Ambrose. All 3 bowlers are fairly close IMO, but fast bowlers tend to have an inherent advantage in these comparisons. They are just more destructive and far less condition-dependent. Spinners obviously can bowl longer but are usually easier to deal with than great fast bowlers.

Imran has plenty going for him even in a head to head with Ambrose too. Imran has 10 fers and match winning performances in England, Australia, West Indies (only if you talk about away performances, he has 3 more 10 fers at home as well) and generally has great output at a slightly higher average. Ambrose was more miserly and much better against Australia but he also was terrible against India. So it's not like it's a totally one-sided contest; it's close. What I find annoying is the transparent agenda of some folks.

Which is why I am genuinely interested in knowing why Warne > Imran but not Ambrose. I am not sure I quite understand how this works,

Aside from stats, personal bias probably plays some role which we are all guilty of. If it came down to it, wouldn't you choose Imran over Lillee for example?

 

[smash84]

Aside from stats, personal bias probably plays some role which we are all guilty of. If it came down to it, wouldn't you choose Imran over Lillee for example?

Of course, personal bias plays a role in many cases, especially if they're a favorite player.

But agendas are different. A complete refusal to see reason. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Of course, personal bias plays a role in many cases, especially if they're a favorite player.

But agendas are different. A complete refusal to see reason. Wouldn't you agree?

Probably.

 

[kyear2]

I forgot who but someone posted home and away stats for a handful of bowlers and Imran came at the very bottom, even behind Warne the only spinner comparable to pacers on away stats. That's telling for me. So even though yes, he's an atg he has to come after those who don't quite have that disparity. The big 3 are a given. But he comes after Steyn and Ambrose for me as well. This is even allowing for the fact that he played more away games in a greater variety of countries (Ambrose) Why? Because outside of wasn't particularly special in any of them in terms of both average and SR overall. Your thoughts Kyear2???

Imran was an ATG, no one questions that.

Subz loves to talk about all the advantages that everyone else had but blatantly ignores the greatest one they've been.

The highlighted part is correct, but Smali and Subz would prefer to make it out that I hate a player for absolutely no reason.

@Johan and others point out the ridiculous nature of the home conditions that existed in Pakistan, during the time that Subz himself subscribes to, Imran averaged 25 away and 17 at home. Regardless how some are trying to spin it if those were his overall numbers, no one would be talking about match winning efforts or wpm. The truth is that his only sub 23 away average was in minnow SL. Even the s/r of 56 was exhibited the lack of penetration Ambrose is accused of. Though this is after taking away the beginning and end of his career.

Added to that, he wasn't the most destructive at the top of the innings, taking away one of the few advantages that most pacers have over spinners, that and s/r which we've already discussed.

Also as was demonstrated in another post, Imran was pretty much on par with even Holding away from home and fits more into that tier than with Steyn, Ambrose and the two spinners that's just above.

 

[subshakerz]

I still haven't gotten any answer to my question as to what are the reasons that Warne is rated as a better bowler than Imran but not better than Ambrose?

I am genuinely curious about that.

Don't hold your breath

 

[subshakerz]

Imran was an ATG, no one questions that.

Subz loves to talk about all the advantages that everyone else had but blatantly ignores the greatest one they've been.

The highlighted part is correct, but Smali and Subz would prefer to make it out that I hate a player for absolutely no reason.

It's kinda sad and pathetic he is going on and on about me while still putting me in ignore mode to not debate directly.

 

[smash84]

Don't hold your breath

Yeah, it's not like his agenda hasn't been clear for a long time but it's always worth exposing him yet again.

But you're right. I shouldn't hold my breath. The most I can expect is another garbage essay about how Imran should be ranked the 39th best bowler and his away average blah blah and a complete refusal to address what has been asked in this thread repeatedly.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah, it's not like his agenda hasn't been clear for a long time but it's always worth exposing him yet again.

But you're right. I shouldn't hold my breath. The most I can expect is another garbage essay about how Imran should be ranked the 39th best bowler and his away average blah blah and a complete refusal to address what has been asked in this thread repeatedly.

The problem is he has no fixed opinions except to downgrade certain players, his rationale will change so you can counter him with one argument and he will come up with another.

I would respect him more for example if he just said I don't rate Imran as highly because he was a cheat rather than find all these backdoor statistical excuses.

 

[smash84]

The highlighted part is correct, but Smali and Subz would prefer to make it out that I hate a player for absolutely no reason.

You've claimed in the past that multiple posters have ganged up on you. There is a very strong reason for that. Your refusal to address valid points is just part of why you get so much **** thrown your way. Constant regurgitation of garbage which adds nothing to the discussion is another reason.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

The problem is he has no fixed opinions except to downgrade certain players, his rationale will change so you can counter him with one argument and he will come up with another.

I would respect him more for example if he just said I don't rate Imran as highly because he was a cheat rather than find all these backdoor statistical excuses.

Respectfully, you do it all the time as well and even bring them up in unrelated threads: Lara, Ambrose, Walsh, Marshall, Kallis, etc. And you too have your moments where for me, your rationale is contradictory. For example, you critcize Ambrose for being miserly but lacking penetration and not playing away in a great variety of conditions. But then you go on to try and downgrade Marshall who was penetrative, miserly and played in a variety of conditions. Your rationale: he didn't play long enough, retired too early, played in strong attacks etc. That's all bs to me because Marshall wasn't a passenger for the WI team, he was the driver and for example, even with all the competition and more draws in the 80s, he has a fairly high wpm.

I say all of the above to say you're no different to Kyear2 when it comes to agendas vs certain players. It'll happen again and you'll try to rationalize it but you know it's true. Smash, afaik has never been one with any agendas.

 

[subshakerz]

Respectfully, you do it all the time as well and even bring them up in unrelated threads: Lara, Ambrose, Walsh, Marshall, Kallis, etc. And you too have your moments where for me, your rationale is contradictory. For example, you critcize Ambrose for being miserly but lacking penetration and not playing away in a great variety of conditions. But then you go on to try and downgrade Marshall who was penetrative, miserly and played in a variety of conditions. Your rationale: he didn't play long enough, retired too early, played in strong attacks etc. That's all bs to me because Marshall wasn't a passenger for the WI team, he was the driver and for example, even with all the competition and more draws in the 80s, he has a fairly high wpm.

Those arent contradictions buddy they are two different arguments for two different players.

I say all of the above to say you're no different to Kyear2 when it comes to agendas vs certain players. It'll happen again and you'll try to rationalize it but you know it's true. Smash, afaik has never been one with any agendas.

If I'm no different than Kyear why do you harp on me and give him a pass? Oh right because you largely agree with his agenda. Which makes your complaint moot.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Those arent contradictions buddy they are two different arguments for two different players.


If I'm no different than Kyear why do you harp on me and give him a pass? Oh right because you largely agree with his agenda. Which makes your complaint moot.

I largely agree? Sure buddy. And don't start with me and giving anyone a pass because we really don't want to go down that road again. I harp on you because duh, you're calling him out for something you do ALL the time which for me is rich. And you do it to the same players over and over and over again.

The fact remains, using the polls as evidence, it's not just Kyear2 or me or whomever else who rate Imran lower than Steyn/Ambrose. I already stated to Smash why I rated him lower and in the warne/Imran comparison I abstained because it's too close. Your problem is, you don't like the poll results and you're just throwing a hissy fit.

 

[subshakerz]

I largely agree? Sure buddy. And don't start with me and giving anyone a pass because we really don't want to go down that road again. I harp on you because duh, you're calling him out for something you do ALL the time which for me is rich. And you do it to the same players over and over and over again.

I give the same arguments just presented openly for debate but I dont hide my real views. Kyear gets criticized because he rants without actually addressing arguments and is accused of hiding his real views and contradicting his own supposed principles he presents in ironclad fashion.

The fact remains, using the polls as evidence, it's not just Kyear2 or me or whomever else who rate Imran lower than Steyn/Ambrose. I already stated to Smash why I rated him lower and in the warne/Imran comparison I abstained because it's too close. Your problem is, you don't like the poll results and you're just throwing a hissy fit.

No I already knew he was behind Ambrose and Steyn on CW. Not sure what fit you are referring to. Where I did question thing is what argument is there for Imran to be behind Warne.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I give the same arguments just presented openly for debate but I dont hide my real views. Kyear gets criticized because he rants without actually addressing arguments and is accused of hiding his real views and contradicting his own supposed principles he presents in ironclad fashion.


No I already knew he was behind Ambrose and Steyn on CW. Not sure what fit you are referring to. Where I did question thing is what argument is there for Imran to be behind Warne.

I abstained from that poll so....

 

[subshakerz]

I abstained from that poll so....

Btw pls realise I'm not the only one who has noticed that Kyear doesn't address arguments head on and responds with ramblings. It literally happens every day and leads to long and unproductive exchanges. You should advise him.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Btw pls realise I'm not the only one who has noticed that Kyear doesn't address arguments head on and responds with ramblings. It literally happens every day and leads to long and unproductive exchanges. You should advise him.

Kyear2 is his own person and this is an open forum where we're free to express opinions, even if we don't always agree. And I personally don't find most of his posts inflammatory or troll worthy. Now your counterpart from SL on the other hand...and you know who I mean.

 

[subshakerz]

Kyear2 is his own person and this is an open forum where we're free to express opinions, even if we don't always agree. And I personally don't find most of his posts inflammatory or troll worthy. Now your counterpart from SL on the other hand...and you know who I mean.

I never said Kyear was a troll. He is not a good faith debater though.

Migara is not a troll too IMO.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I never said Kyear was a troll. He is not a good faith debater though.

Migara is not a troll too IMO.

Sooo that bit about Dev (yes I'm butt hurt) he said a few weeks ago isn't troll worthy? And that's one in the list of other stupid comments.

 

[subshakerz]

Sooo that bit about Dev (yes I'm butt hurt) he said a few weeks ago isn't troll worthy? And that's one in the list of other stupid comments.

That's just Migara being Migara.