Saffers in English cricket

[Uppercut]

You don't have to go back that far tho, tbf. Take the team who played v Australia:

Shay Given
John O'Shea
Sean St. Ledger (English)
Richard Dunne
Kevin Kilbane (English)
Aidan McGeady (Scottish)
Glenn Whelan
Darron Gibson
Damien Duff
Robbie Keane
Kevin Doyle.

Subs: Kieren Westwood (English), Eddie Nolan, Kevin Foley (English), Andy Keogh, Keith Andrews, Stephen Hunt, Caleb Folan (English), Liam Miller, Shane Long, Liam Lawrence (English), Stephen Kelly.

So that's seven non-natives in the team, even without mentioning Gibson, who's an Ulsterman.

Aidan McGeady's as Irish as they come, two Irish parents, calls himself Irish and he was turning down the chance to play for Scotland for that reason before he even turned 16. Kilbane considers himself Irish too, both parents were Irish. Has the accent and all.

The other cases I'm not so familiar with, bar Gibson, who I discussed at length on the forums at the time.

 

[tooextracool]

For mine, anybody who is a citizen of a country and holds a valid passport to testify for that should be allowed to play for that country. It's one of the rights of being a citizen. Couldn't care less if he couldn't speak a word of English or if his English accent is not quite English enough. The exception to the rule of course being anyone who has represented another country before, in which case there should be a long qualification period, something more than 5 years in order to qualify to play for another country a la Kepler Wessels, Graeme Hick or Anderson Cummins.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Aidan McGeady's as Irish as they come, two Irish parents, calls himself Irish and he was turning down the chance to play for Scotland for that reason before he even turned 16. Kilbane considers himself Irish too, both parents were Irish. Has the accent and all.

The other cases I'm not so familiar with, bar Gibson, who I discussed at length on the forums at the time.

McGeady might consider himself Irish, I know a lot of children of the Irish diaspora do (my Uncle Mick, for one), but he is Scottish born and raised, tbf.

I'm not knocking Ireland, would've lept at the chance to play for them myself if I had the talent and England didn't ask first, but my point was why consider results achieved using non-native born sons any less of a victory? As GIMH pointed out, were Pietersen a footballer (or rugby player) he wouldn't even have had to serve the 4 year qualification because he has an English mum and didn't play for any SA age-group rep sides.

 

[GIMH]

In all honesty I find the whole debate steps on dodgy ground. I feel a little uneasy whenever someone tries to put nationality into definable barriers; I have a cousin who was born in America or at least has lived over there since he was very young (not quite sure which) but both his parents are English and despite being a US citizen he considers himself English. I think I have mentioned him before (pretty sure I discussed it with Richard). That's his call IMO and I am so glad the rules on qualification aren't as restrictive as some posters would like them to be when people wouldn't dare suggest such restrictions in other walks of life.

 

[pskov]

If someone wants to play for a country and qualifies for a passport then good on them. Any other qualification of nationality is on dodgy ground imho.

 

[Langeveldt]

In all honesty I find the whole debate steps on dodgy ground. I feel a little uneasy whenever someone tries to put nationality into definable barriers; I have a cousin who was born in America or at least has lived over there since he was very young (not quite sure which) but both his parents are English and despite being a US citizen he considers himself English. I think I have mentioned him before (pretty sure I discussed it with Richard). That's his call IMO and I am so glad the rules on qualification aren't as restrictive as some posters would like them to be when people wouldn't dare suggest such restrictions in other walks of life.

Fair enough, but under no circumstances would I ever consider myself eligible to play for SA, even though I have I think been here for as long if not longer than Pietersen has been in England.. The whole being able to pick and chose who you play for doesn't sit well with me.. I qualify for Eastern Province badminton based simply on residency.. I'll take it, but I don't see it as my right to play for them..

 

[Jamee999]

Do you have a Saffie parent, Rich?

 

[Zinzan]

Don't you think it detracts from victory at all? What if you're touring South Africa and getting stuffed, then KP and Trott put on a 200 run partnership and win you the game?

I dunno how the South Africans view the whole thing, but I know that if England played Ireland and Eoin Morgan and Ed Joyce hit big tons to win the game for England, I wouldn't feel like we'd been beaten. Not at all.

And I can't understand how England fans could feel like they'd beaten us either.

Super post this. Agree entirely & don't ask me why, but as a NZ supporter I honestly felt like a bit of a cheat when Grant Elliott scored that excellent one-day 100 against Aussie last year, just didn't seem right to me.. so I can definitely see where your coming from

 

[Langeveldt]

Do you have a Saffie parent, Rich?

No, I've got family over here but not parents

 

[Langeveldt]

Super post this. Agree entirely & don't ask me why, but as a NZ supporter I honestly felt like a bit of a cheat when Grant Elliott scored that excellent one-day 100 against Aussie last year, just didn't seem right to me.. so I can definitely see where your coming from

I know Grant personally, I used to play club cricket with him.. If he is a Kiwi then I'm Butch James

 

[Langeveldt]

A lot of people from overseas ask me how Saffers view the whole thing.. To be honest they all see it as a bit of a joke, and laugh at the fact that England need help to win a game of cricket. However, the light hearted mentality is probably due to the fact that SA are apparently the best side in the world at the moment.. I can't imagine people laughing it off were we to start losing all the time.. School and club sport is insanely good here, the structures and talent identification schemes are all in place to go on producing basically as much talent as we need to carry on being the best side in the world without actually winning any decent trophies..

 

[Craig]

A lot of people from overseas ask me how Saffers view the whole thing.. To be honest they all see it as a bit of a joke, and laugh at the fact that England need help to win a game of cricket. However, the light hearted mentality is probably due to the fact that SA are apparently the best side in the world at the moment.. I can't imagine people laughing it off were we to start losing all the time.. School and club sport is insanely good here, the structures and talent identification schemes are all in place to go on producing basically as much talent as we need to carry on being the best side in the world without actually winning any decent trophies..

Rugby World Cup, no?

 

[Uppercut]

McGeady might consider himself Irish, I know a lot of children of the Irish diaspora do (my Uncle Mick, for one), but he is Scottish born and raised, tbf.

I'm not knocking Ireland, would've lept at the chance to play for them myself if I had the talent and England didn't ask first, but my point was why consider results achieved using non-native born sons any less of a victory? As GIMH pointed out, were Pietersen a footballer (or rugby player) he wouldn't even have had to serve the 4 year qualification because he has an English mum and didn't play for any SA age-group rep sides.

In all honesty I find the whole debate steps on dodgy ground. I feel a little uneasy whenever someone tries to put nationality into definable barriers; I have a cousin who was born in America or at least has lived over there since he was very young (not quite sure which) but both his parents are English and despite being a US citizen he considers himself English. I think I have mentioned him before (pretty sure I discussed it with Richard). That's his call IMO and I am so glad the rules on qualification aren't as restrictive as some posters would like them to be when people wouldn't dare suggest such restrictions in other walks of life.

I do agree with GIMH here, but there's a difference between McGeady saying he wants to play for Ireland because he considers himself Irish and Eoin Morgan wanting to play for England (one week after turning out for Ireland) simply because they're better.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I do agree with GIMH here, but there's a difference between McGeady saying he wants to play for Ireland because he considers himself Irish and Eoin Morgan wanting to play for England (one week after turning out for Ireland) simply because they're better.

Yeah, fair enough, although I suspect it's the carrot of test cricket rather than England just being "better" per se that's lead to the change of allegiance.

However, your point supports my contention about KP being at least partly English. If a Glasgow born-and-raised son of Irish parents considers himself Irish why can't the son of an English mother born and bred in Pietermaritzburg think of himself as at least in part English?

 

[Craig]

Yeah, fair enough, although I suspect it's the carrot of test cricket rather than England just being "better" per se that's lead to the change of allegiance.

However, your point supports my contention about KP being at least partly English. If a Glasgow born-and-raised son of Irish parents considers himself Irish why can't the son of an English mother born and bred in Pietermaritzburg think of himself as at least in part English?

Do you consider Geriant Jones to be Australian instead of Welsh and Tim Ambrose to be Australian rather then English since they spent their formative years in Australia?

 

[BoyBrumby]

Do you consider Geriant Jones to be Australian instead of Welsh and Tim Ambrose to be Australian rather then English since they spent their formative years in Australia?

I think, if I had to assign just one nationality to them, then yes, I would say they were Aussies; but if they "felt" English or Welsh who am I to say otherwise?

 

[Langeveldt]

Rugby World Cup, no?

Was talking specifically cricket, but fair enough

 

[Uppercut]

Yeah, fair enough, although I suspect it's the carrot of test cricket rather than England just being "better" per se that's lead to the change of allegiance.

However, your point supports my contention about KP being at least partly English. If a Glasgow born-and-raised son of Irish parents considers himself Irish why can't the son of an English mother born and bred in Pietermaritzburg think of himself as at least in part English?

Think KP playing for England's fair game tbh. Have never said otherwise.

He did originally want to play for South Africa though, which is why a lot of people think he's with the wrong side. It's a pretty major difference in comparison with, say, Aidan McGeady.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Think KP playing for England's fair game tbh. Have never said otherwise.

He did originally want to play for South Africa though, which is why a lot of people think he's with the wrong side. It's a pretty major difference in comparison with, say, Aidan McGeady.

Reads like you implied it tho, tbf:

Don't you think it detracts from victory at all? What if you're touring South Africa and getting stuffed, then KP and Trott put on a 200 run partnership and win you the game?

 

[GIMH]

Think KP playing for England's fair game tbh. Have never said otherwise.

He did originally want to play for South Africa though, which is why a lot of people think he's with the wrong side. It's a pretty major difference in comparison with, say, Aidan McGeady.

Claims to have supported England in some sport as a kid, can't remember which