Saffers in English cricket

[BoyBrumby]

It doesn't matter. Pothas, van Jaarsveld et cetera have represented South Africa but could play for England tomorrow.

If cricket was like football or rugby, South Africa would routinely play Zimbabwe and Kenya, where everyone will get capped.

And Trott would ineligible under those sports rules, as he represented RSA U19's in an ICC event. Same goes for Kieswetter.

Couple of points aren't true there:

1) van Jaarseveld couldn't play for us tomorrow because he's not a British or Irish citizen. Pothas originally came over on his Greek passport (which meant he was regarded as local for EU employment law purpoese, but not eligible for England selection even when he'd done 4 years residence) but subsequently took out British citizenship, so is now available were the selectors so minded.

2) Playing age-group international union doesn't mean you aren't eligible for another country at full level. Matt Stevens played for SA in an Under-21 World Cup and was propping for us until his coke ban & Riki Flutey played for the (winning) NZ Under-19 team World Cup team in 1999. Interestingly (or perhaps not) Flutey wouldn't be eligible for England were he a cricketer because he's not a British subject.

Don't you think it detracts from victory at all? What if you're touring South Africa and getting stuffed, then KP and Trott put on a 200 run partnership and win you the game?

I dunno how the South Africans view the whole thing, but I know that if England played Ireland and Eoin Morgan and Ed Joyce hit big tons to win the game for England, I wouldn't feel like we'd been beaten. Not at all.

And I can't understand how England fans could feel like they'd beaten us either.

Pfft. The Irish football team has been full of plastic paddies for decades, in fact the joke was that FAI stood for Find An Irishman. Do you discount Ray Houghton's goal against us in the 1988 European Championship because he's not Irish?

If someone's English enough for the team it's good enough for me.

 

[Uppercut]

Pfft. The Irish football team has been full of plastic paddies for decades, in fact the joke was that FAI stood for Find An Irishman. Do you discount Ray Houghton's goal against us in the 1988 European Championship because he's not Irish?

If someone's English enough for the team it's good enough for me.

I wasn't born. If he'd turned out for England a month previously I may have had my reservations tbh. "English enough for the team" is a lot less English in cricket than it is in any other sport.

 

[TT Boy]

Couple of points aren't true there:

1) van Jaarseveld couldn't play for us tomorrow because he's not a British or Irish citizen. Pothas originally came over on his Greek passport (which meant he was regarded as local for EU employment law purpoese, but not eligible for England selection even when he'd done 4 years residence) but subsequently took out British citizenship, so is now available were the selectors so minded.

2) Playing age-group international union doesn't mean you aren't eligible for another country at full level. Matt Stevens played for SA in an Under-21 World Cup and was propping for us until his coke ban & Riki Flutey played for the (winning) NZ Under-19 team World Cup team in 1999. Interestingly (or perhaps not) Flutey wouldn't be eligible for England were he a cricketer because he's not a British subject.



Pfft. The Irish football team has been full of plastic paddies for decades, in fact the joke was that FAI stood for Find An Irishman. Do you discount Ray Houghton's goal against us in the 1988 European Championship because he's not Irish?

If someone's English enough for the team it's good enough for me.

van Jaarsveld is, got it this year.

The IRB I believe has changed its rules. If you play for South Africa A (which in rugby doesn't exist), you can't play for another country but if you play for the Emerging Boks (who do exist) you can be naturalised somewhere else. Brad Barritt is the most recent example, a player who has been capped multiple times for South African representative sides but because he didn't play in an 'A' side, he can play for England.

And Ray Houghton had to play for the Republic, his catholic and it's the 1980s.

 

[GIMH]

I wasn't born. If he'd turned out for England a month previously I may have had my reservations tbh. "English enough for the team" is a lot less English in cricket than it is in any other sport.

When I used to go on holiday with my mum as a kid, I'd have a Tranmere shirt on and Irish people would come up to me and tell them how much they love Aldo.

Heard his accent?

He's less Irish than KP is English. He qualifies through a grandparent, and has never lived in Ireland. When Jason McAteer was called up, he actually said, "I don't know how I qualify but apparently I do," now Macca is renowned for being ******** but he could hardly claim to have had aspirations of playing for them. Pietersen and Trott set their stall out to qualify for England and it's harder to qualify in cricket than it is in football - pretty sure KP would have been eligible for England right from birth in football.

edit - reading again I may have misinterpreted your point, but I don't think anyone was complaining about Owen Hargreaves when he was our best player at the last WC, and as far as I know we have more 'non-English' in the rugby team than the cricket one.

 

[zaremba]

I think it's gratifying that people from the colonies choose to come and live in England. Makes a change from days gone by, when the process operated in reverse and with a greater degree of compulsion.

 

[Langeveldt]

I dunno, it seems to be happening a lot more since apartheid ended....

In my little corner of Hertfordshire, there are so many white Saffers now living here, who've migrated to England since apartheid ended. Interestingly, they talk longingly of the 'good old days' before the ANC came to power....

Let's look at the players currently in the England side and when they came to the country:

Andrew Strauss - it looks like his folks left South Africa before apartheid ended in the early 1990s, but I cannot find out when he left.

Matt Prior - left South Africa when he was 11, which is just about when Nelson Mandela was released from prison.

Both KP and Trott left after the ANC took over in South Africa.

Now, I'm not under any circumstances saying that these four outstanding cricketers share the mindset of some of their native Saffers who now live in England. But this is a migration that does seem to have some genesis in the changing of the guard....

Well yeah the "Good old days" were called that for a reason, if you were lucky enough to have the right skin colour.. While no doubt standards have declined here since the end of apartheid, I think the oppertunities and life available to your average SA'n is a lot better than it once was, and justifies our transition to a democracy.. Those that want to be a part of it, and there are stacks of people from all over the world that do, are being a part of it, and those that don't have left.. Good luck to them all, it's a very personal decision and one I think about every day, but I'll take the good life over here over a bigger paycheck back in Blighty any day of the week.

 

[BoyBrumby]

van Jaarsveld is, got it this year.

The IRB I believe has changed its rules. If you play for South Africa A (which in rugby doesn't exist), you can't play for another country but if you play for the Emerging Boks (who do exist) you can be naturalised somewhere else. Brad Barritt is the most recent example, a player who has been capped multiple times for South African representative sides but because he didn't play in an 'A' side, he can play for England.

And Ray Houghton had to play for the Republic, his catholic and it's the 1980s.

Not according to Regulation 8.

Only mentions "senior side or next senior side" which I would presume included Emerging Sprongboks, England Saxons and other "A" teams.

 

[BoyBrumby]

When I used to go on holiday with my mum as a kid, I'd have a Tranmere shirt on and Irish people would come up to me and tell them how much they love Aldo.

Heard his accent?

He's less Irish than KP is English. He qualifies through a grandparent, and has never lived in Ireland. When Jason McAteer was called up, he actually said, "I don't know how I qualify but apparently I do," now Macca is renowned for being ******** but he could hardly claim to have had aspirations of playing for them. Pietersen and Trott set their stall out to qualify for England and it's harder to qualify in cricket than it is in football - pretty sure KP would have been eligible for England right from birth in football.

edit - reading again I may have misinterpreted your point, but I don't think anyone was complaining about Owen Hargreaves when he was our best player at the last WC, and as far as I know we have more 'non-English' in the rugby team than the cricket one.

It's about even. In our last Six Nations game we only had two genuine foreigners: Riki Flutey & Dylan Hartley (both NZders). Even then Hartley is debateable because he moved over with his family at 15.

Delon Armitage (Trinidad) & Simon Shaw (Kenya) are both foreign-born, but English raised. Although, confusingly, Armitage did spend some time in France as a child too.

 

[TT Boy]

That's interesting, thought it was like FIFA.

 

[Craig]

Here's a team of South Africans playing County Cricket who have "disowned" South Africa, with accompanying First Class records.

1. Boeta Dippenaar (10,695 runs @ 41.45)
2. Jacques Rudolph (10,931 runs @ 44.43; 58 wickets @ 41.51)
3. Martin van Jaarsveld (15,021 runs @ 45.38)
4. Kevin Pietersen (11,026 runs @ 50.81; 61 wickets @ 52.93)
5. Dale Benkenstein (12,486 runs @ 46.07; 87 wickets @ 36.11)
6. Jonathan Trott (8,204 runs @ 43.87; 50 wickets @ 45.68)
7. Nic Pothas (10,354 runs @ 41.91; 597 dismissals)
8. Andrew Hall (6,210 runs @ 34.69; 492 wickets @ 25.71)
9. Nicky Boje (8,244 runs @ 34.32; 545 wickets @ 32.17)
10. Ryan McLaren (2,533 runs @ 27.23; 248 wickets @ 24.78)
11. Johan van der Wath (2696 runs @ 24.96; 281 wickets @ 25.88)

12. Justin Kemp (5,871 runs @ 35.36; 192 wickets @ 27.08)

That's a ridiculous team. It'd beat most Test teams in the world IMO, and it has the best "tail" of all time. It's a wonder South Africa are any good at all having lost all that quality.. and it doesn't even take players like Strauss and Prior into consideration.

Though Mclaren is going back to SA so Nel could come in for him.
Stolen from elsewhere.

Over half of that squad still play cricket in South Africa and none of them were disowned. They all had international/domestic contracts prior to leaving and most of them still do.

And it isn't like South African didn't get good value out of them. How many opportunities did Rudolph, van Jaarsveld and Human get to consolidate their national positions? And Rudolph is apparently getting another go soon...

That side couldn't perform when they had even better cricketers like Pollock, Donald and Kallis playing with them, how could they do it now?

And you have to take in the fact that a few of them were playing in the ICL.

 

[SeamUp]

Most of those SA players are past there best but when at there best either played fairly consistently or never produced.

People like Hall and Rudolph to me are class acts and would walk into the England team tomorrow.

MVJ/ Benky/Dippenaar are seen in South Africa as brilliant domestic batsman in our country but would not make it ahead of Gibbs, G.Kirsten, Kallis, Cullinan, Amla, De Villiers and the list can go on.

Our domestic structure is top class and would go as far to say that is the best in the world. We cover all bases in terms of varying pitches (from absolute vipers to spinning tops) and pure pace bowlers to spinners. We have a good blend of youth and experience in our teams compared to the aging sides in Australia and we have strength v strength unlike England and India.

The biggest point is that we have such a good production line people like Trott cannot get confirmed as a future international. Our school system and provincial school weeks identify cricketers from early and they attend academy and eventually get put into our franchise system. That is the reason we have so much talent even coming through at the moment with the loss of some of those cricketers.

 

[Craig]

How about a South African and Australian cricketer swap domestic seasons (ie the SA cricketer goes to Australia and vice versa) and see how they fare. I find it interesting that SA first class cricket could be of a higher standard then the Sheffield Shield (force of habit nearly lead me to type the Pura Cup), any evidence to back that up?

 

[SJS]

Okay here is my two penny worth. Here are the people I feel should be eligible to play for a country other than one of their birth.

1. Those born in a foreign land only because their parents were traveling/working in another country at the time of their birth. Thats why Compton was eligible to play for England.

2. Those whose own countries do not play cricket at international level (or are not allowed to play for political reasons for example) and who have served the other (including residential) criteria in the country of their choice. Thats how Ranji was eligible to play for England. D'Oliviera is the other example.

3. Those who came to live in another country as children when their parents decided to migrate. This must exclude who come to another country to study for example and decide to stay there and play cricket. Nasser Hussain is eligible under this criteria and Nawab Pataudi Jr wouldn't have been.​

I dont see any justification in a player being allowed to play for another country only because he cant find a place in his own country (unless it is like D'Oliviera's case). Thus I do not agree with Pietersen being allowed to play for England.

 

[GIMH]

I say it all the time, but IMO Pietersen shouldn't have had to qualify due to having an English mum.

 

[Uppercut]

When I used to go on holiday with my mum as a kid, I'd have a Tranmere shirt on and Irish people would come up to me and tell them how much they love Aldo.

Heard his accent?

He's less Irish than KP is English. He qualifies through a grandparent, and has never lived in Ireland. When Jason McAteer was called up, he actually said, "I don't know how I qualify but apparently I do," now Macca is renowned for being ******** but he could hardly claim to have had aspirations of playing for them. Pietersen and Trott set their stall out to qualify for England and it's harder to qualify in cricket than it is in football - pretty sure KP would have been eligible for England right from birth in football.

edit - reading again I may have misinterpreted your point, but I don't think anyone was complaining about Owen Hargreaves when he was our best player at the last WC, and as far as I know we have more 'non-English' in the rugby team than the cricket one.

I don't have the sufficient age to comment on your comparisons with Aldo and McAteer.

I'll use the cricket team as an example. Here's the squad for the game against England tomorrow:

William Porterfield (capt), Andre Botha, Alex Cusack, Trent Johnston, John Mooney, Kyle McCallan, Kevin O'Brien, Niall O'Brien, Boyd Rankin, Paul Stirling, Regan West, Andrew White, Gary Wilson.

Irish players are bolded. Nine of the squad of thirteen are those who were born here, raised here and learned to play their cricket here. If it weren't for the two middle-order batsmen defecting to England, our strongest XI would probably contain only one nationalised player. And he's 35.

Now, I didn't celebrate the victories of the side any less when they were absolutely loaded with Plastic Paddies. But I'm a hell of a lot more proud of the side now that they're winning with players from Ireland. It's fantastic to know that after years of sponging South Africans and Australians, the best Irish-qualified cricketers are now Irish. Hell, some of the best England-qualified cricketers are Irish.

Personally, I think if I was an England fan and England beat Ireland using stolen Irishmen, I'd be mildly embarrassed. It wouldn't stop me celebrating, but it would be a bit pathetic that we couldn't produce any cricketers of our own that could do the job.

 

[Craig]

So do people consider Hussain to be Indian, even though he lived in England most his life and learnt his cricket, played cricket for them etc.?

 

[BoyBrumby]

I don't have the sufficient age to comment on your comparisons with Aldo and McAteer.

You don't have to go back that far tho, tbf. Take the team who played v Australia:

Shay Given
John O'Shea
Sean St. Ledger (English)
Richard Dunne
Kevin Kilbane (English)
Aidan McGeady (Scottish)
Glenn Whelan
Darron Gibson
Damien Duff
Robbie Keane
Kevin Doyle.

Subs: Kieren Westwood (English), Eddie Nolan, Kevin Foley (English), Andy Keogh, Keith Andrews, Stephen Hunt, Caleb Folan (English), Liam Miller, Shane Long, Liam Lawrence (English), Stephen Kelly.

So that's seven non-natives in the team, even without mentioning Gibson, who's an Ulsterman.

So do people consider Hussain to be Indian, even though he lived in England most his life and learnt his cricket, played cricket for them etc.?

As English as roast beef and bad teeth. He's of Anglo-Indian parentage anyway (mum's English) and grew up here from the age of six. Nass is on record as considering himself "100% English".

 

[Craig]

You don't have to go back that far tho, tbf. Take the team who played v Australia:

Shay Given
John O'Shea
Sean St. Ledger (English)
Richard Dunne
Kevin Kilbane (English)
Aidan McGeady (Scottish)
Glenn Whelan
Darron Gibson
Damien Duff
Robbie Keane
Kevin Doyle.

Subs: Kieren Westwood (English), Eddie Nolan, Kevin Foley (English), Andy Keogh, Keith Andrews, Stephen Hunt, Caleb Folan (English), Liam Miller, Shane Long, Liam Lawrence (English), Stephen Kelly.

So that's seven non-natives in the team, even without mentioning Gibson, who's an Ulsterman.



As English as roast beef and bad teeth. He's of Anglo-Indian parentage anyway (mum's English) and grew up here from the age of six. Nass is on record as considering himself "100% English".

It was sort of why I asked it as we have people on here saying Strauss is South African which is complete BS and I knew their cases were very similar.

 

[BoyBrumby]

It was sort of why I asked it as we have people on here saying Strauss is South African which is complete BS and I knew their cases were very similar.

Yeah, Strauss is English as far as I'm concerned. Grew up here from the age of seven, I believe.

I mean, look at Darren Pattinson; we copped flak from some quarters for picking an Aussie roofer, which is what he is. But he was born in England. If people are claiming Strauss as South African it would follow that Pattinson (who spent the first five years of his life here) is a pom, which is patent nonsense. You only have to hear him speak and the same is true of Strauss, whose accent is cut-glass RP English.

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, plenty of people who call Strauss a Saffa all the time didn't seem to have a problem with Symonds playing for Australia. I'm just saying.