Saffers in English cricket

[shivfan]

Jonathan Trott's successful debut now makes it four Englishmen who were born in South Africa who have now cemented their place in the English Test team, the others being Andrew Strauss, Kevin Pietersen and Matthew Prior....

And there are quite a few others making runs in county cricket. Who knows, in a couple of years' time, we could see an England side playing the next Ashes series with a batting lineup that looks like this:

1) Andrew Strauss
2) Stephen Moore
3) Michael Lumb
4) Kevin Pietersen
5) Jacques Rudolph
6) Jonathan Trott
7) Matthew Prior

Given the influx of Saffer cricketers to England over the past decade, this is quite a real possibility. I guess English cricket has a lot to thank the end of apartheid for!

 

[GIMH]

I think it's important, though, to distinguish between Strauss & Prior, and Pietersen and Trott. Strauss and Prior are products of English cricket, and have been over here since their youth, and I think have English parents as well.

 

[BoyBrumby]

To be fair, South Africans were coming over long before the end of Apartheid. Think D'Oliveira was the first to make our test team and was followed by Tony Greig, Ian Greig, Allan Lamb, Chris Smith, Robin Smith, Neal Radford, KP & Trott. Strauss & Prior are slightly different in that they came to the UK as children with their families.

Fair play to them, I say. If a player is available for selection and is the best man for the job we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot to ignore them based on birthplace or upbringing.

 

[Jarquis]

Made a similar point to PEWS on msn earlier this evening itbt. Trying to name an English qualified, Saffa born XI.

You should see the XI you could make out of Kolpaks though, it's ridiculous.

 

[TT Boy]

No issue with Strauss, Prior et cetera. They were educated here and were produced by our system.

Playing cricketers who couldn't speak English until they were 20 is another thing though.

 

[PhoenixFire]

Meh that doesn't really bother me TBH. As long as they give their 100% best when playing for England, I'll take anyone.

 

[Jarquis]

Made a similar point to PEWS on msn earlier this evening itbt. Trying to name an English qualified, Saffa born XI.

You should see the XI you could make out of Kolpaks though, it's ridiculous.

Here's a team of South Africans playing County Cricket who have "disowned" South Africa, with accompanying First Class records.

1. Boeta Dippenaar (10,695 runs @ 41.45)
2. Jacques Rudolph (10,931 runs @ 44.43; 58 wickets @ 41.51)
3. Martin van Jaarsveld (15,021 runs @ 45.38)
4. Kevin Pietersen (11,026 runs @ 50.81; 61 wickets @ 52.93)
5. Dale Benkenstein (12,486 runs @ 46.07; 87 wickets @ 36.11)
6. Jonathan Trott (8,204 runs @ 43.87; 50 wickets @ 45.68)
7. Nic Pothas (10,354 runs @ 41.91; 597 dismissals)
8. Andrew Hall (6,210 runs @ 34.69; 492 wickets @ 25.71)
9. Nicky Boje (8,244 runs @ 34.32; 545 wickets @ 32.17)
10. Ryan McLaren (2,533 runs @ 27.23; 248 wickets @ 24.78)
11. Johan van der Wath (2696 runs @ 24.96; 281 wickets @ 25.88)

12. Justin Kemp (5,871 runs @ 35.36; 192 wickets @ 27.08)

That's a ridiculous team. It'd beat most Test teams in the world IMO, and it has the best "tail" of all time. It's a wonder South Africa are any good at all having lost all that quality.. and it doesn't even take players like Strauss and Prior into consideration.

Though Mclaren is going back to SA so Nel could come in for him.
Stolen from elsewhere.

 

[TT Boy]

Only bothers me because part of the thing of supporting England, is supporting players who come from your country.

 

[TT Boy]

Over half of that squad still play cricket in South Africa and none of them were disowned. They all had international/domestic contracts prior to leaving and most of them still do.

And it isn't like South African didn't get good value out of them. How many opportunities did Rudolph, van Jaarsveld and Human get to consolidate their national positions? And Rudolph is apparently getting another go soon...

That side couldn't perform when they had even better cricketers like Pollock, Donald and Kallis playing with them, how could they do it now?

 

[Demon43]

its a bloody joke you should have to play for the country your born in strauss and prior a bit of an exception but peitersen and trott are a joke they represented their country at a junior level so they should have to play for their country

 

[SJS]

I think with the world having become as small as it has, worrying about these issues in this time and age is really very surprising.

If this is how we feel in the 21st century, surely those who played Ranji in the 19th were far more enlightened than us.

 

[wpdavid]

No issue with Strauss, Prior et cetera. They were educated here and were produced by our system.

Playing cricketers who couldn't speak English until they were 20 is another thing though.

or those who have represented another country at a lower level.

Obviously I'm completely in favour of Trott right now, but the prospect of and England side featuring lots of guys who've changed nationaility as a career move doesn't thrill me.

 

[oitoitoi]

Here's a team of South Africans playing County Cricket who have "disowned" South Africa, with accompanying First Class records.

1. Boeta Dippenaar (10,695 runs @ 41.45)
2. Jacques Rudolph (10,931 runs @ 44.43; 58 wickets @ 41.51)
3. Martin van Jaarsveld (15,021 runs @ 45.38)
4. Kevin Pietersen (11,026 runs @ 50.81; 61 wickets @ 52.93)
5. Dale Benkenstein (12,486 runs @ 46.07; 87 wickets @ 36.11)
6. Jonathan Trott (8,204 runs @ 43.87; 50 wickets @ 45.68)
7. Nic Pothas (10,354 runs @ 41.91; 597 dismissals)
8. Andrew Hall (6,210 runs @ 34.69; 492 wickets @ 25.71)
9. Nicky Boje (8,244 runs @ 34.32; 545 wickets @ 32.17)
10. Ryan McLaren (2,533 runs @ 27.23; 248 wickets @ 24.78)
11. Johan van der Wath (2696 runs @ 24.96; 281 wickets @ 25.88)

12. Justin Kemp (5,871 runs @ 35.36; 192 wickets @ 27.08)

That's a ridiculous team. It'd beat most Test teams in the world IMO, and it has the best "tail" of all time. It's a wonder South Africa are any good at all having lost all that quality.. and it doesn't even take players like Strauss and Prior into consideration.

Though Mclaren is going back to SA so Nel could come in for him.
Stolen from elsewhere.

No it wouldn't, it would certainly win the championship with ease and possibly be competitive at test level. Rudolph is a damn good player these days, Mclaren's almost certainly worth a few ODI's at least. The others are has beens who've been usurped in the pecking order I'm afraid.

I guess the problem is what Atherton mentioned on Sky, international cricket is about testing a one country's domestic cricket system against another's, and with South African trained players playing for England it's not really doing that anymore. Also it's incredibly worrying for England's future that the South African players who couldn't make it in South Africa are being picked or considered for England ahead of English players with alarming regularity. As he said regarding Trott's selection, surely there is a young English batsmen in the counties good enough to be a decent international batsman?

 

[Briony]

I think that Rudolph, van der Wath and Hall are all, along with McLaren returning to SA domestic cricket with the first two available to play for SA again, likewise McLaren if good enough. Kieswetter and Malan look lost to them though. Majola said something about them trying to play their kids young to qualify them to keep them out of the clutches of the rapacious England.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I guess English cricket has a lot to thank the end of apartheid for!

Not really. If the ban hadn't been lifted some of the Pollock's, Kallis's or Donald's of this world might have played for England instead. Having said that I don't agree with non Englishmen playing for England unless they come here as children and were brought up and learned their cricket here. Just conveniently changing nationality for the sake of playing Test cricket with no affinity for the Country shouldn't be allowed.

 

[Redbacks]

Maybe Buchanan was right about having a draft style system

 

[TT Boy]

I think that Rudolph, van der Wath and Hall are all, along with McLaren returning to SA domestic cricket with the first two available to play for SA again, likewise McLaren if good enough. Kieswetter and Malan look lost to them though. Majola said something about them trying to play their kids young to qualify them to keep them out of the clutches of the rapacious England.

It doesn't matter. Pothas, van Jaarsveld et cetera have represented South Africa but could play for England tomorrow.

If cricket was like football or rugby, South Africa would routinely play Zimbabwe and Kenya, where everyone will get capped.

And Trott would ineligible under those sports rules, as he represented RSA U19's in an ICC event. Same goes for Kieswetter.

 

[Uppercut]

Meh that doesn't really bother me TBH. As long as they give their 100% best when playing for England, I'll take anyone.

Don't you think it detracts from victory at all? What if you're touring South Africa and getting stuffed, then KP and Trott put on a 200 run partnership and win you the game?

I dunno how the South Africans view the whole thing, but I know that if England played Ireland and Eoin Morgan and Ed Joyce hit big tons to win the game for England, I wouldn't feel like we'd been beaten. Not at all.

And I can't understand how England fans could feel like they'd beaten us either.

 

[shivfan]

Not really. If the ban hadn't been lifted some of the Pollock's, Kallis's or Donald's of this world might have played for England instead. Having said that I don't agree with non Englishmen playing for England unless they come here as children and were brought up and learned their cricket here. Just conveniently changing nationality for the sake of playing Test cricket with no affinity for the Country shouldn't be allowed.

I dunno, it seems to be happening a lot more since apartheid ended....

In my little corner of Hertfordshire, there are so many white Saffers now living here, who've migrated to England since apartheid ended. Interestingly, they talk longingly of the 'good old days' before the ANC came to power....

Let's look at the players currently in the England side and when they came to the country:

Andrew Strauss - it looks like his folks left South Africa before apartheid ended in the early 1990s, but I cannot find out when he left.

Matt Prior - left South Africa when he was 11, which is just about when Nelson Mandela was released from prison.

Both KP and Trott left after the ANC took over in South Africa.

Now, I'm not under any circumstances saying that these four outstanding cricketers share the mindset of some of their native Saffers who now live in England. But this is a migration that does seem to have some genesis in the changing of the guard....

 

[PhoenixFire]

Don't you think it detracts from victory at all? What if you're touring South Africa and getting stuffed, then KP and Trott put on a 200 run partnership and win you the game?

I dunno how the South Africans view the whole thing, but I know that if England played Ireland and Eoin Morgan and Ed Joyce hit big tons to win the game for England, I wouldn't feel like we'd been beaten. Not at all.

And I can't understand how England fans could feel like they'd beaten us either.

I just don't really think about it that way. I see where you're coming from, but when KP and Trott are making runs for England, I just see it as them making runs for England, nothing else.