Saeed Anwar vs. Virender Sehwag

[Avada Kedavra]

I love how people make farcical arguments when it comes to players they don't like/rate highly. The first argument is they haven't scored a century against a good attack. If that is proven wrong, then they say it is a flat track. If that is also proven wrong, they talk about the bowlers being past their peak and not bowling the right type of swing.

 

[aussie]

I love how people make farcical arguments when it comes to players they don't like/rate highly.

I like & rate Sehwag. One of my favourite players, was watching my tape of this tripe hundred vs SA up to the other day. I'm just putting his test career in proper context, in which he has many faults.

The first argument is they haven't scored a century against a good attack.

Good pace attack in bowler friendly conditions. Since a good attack can also be a good spin attack & i'm not refering to his record againts spin, since he is very good againts them.

If that is proven wrong, then they say it is a flat track. If that is also proven wrong, they talk about the bowlers being past their peak and not bowling the right type of swing.

I wasn't proven wrong in either aspect. Everything i said about Sehwag is facts, nothing manipulated.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Any knock can be made out to be bad by using arguments like "Oh it was a flat pitch", "he was past his peak", "he hadn't developed yet" etc etc.

I had a good look at their career records. If you are going to use stats, Sehwag wins pretty easily. An average of 50 against 45 and a SR of about 25 points higher! In his debut match, he scored a 100 in SA with his team in deep trouble at 68/4. This is considered as an average knock. Yet Anwar's failings on debut are explained away using "no disgrace for a youngster to fail in his debut". If you take into account the world 11 match, Sehwag scored an 80 odd from memory out of a team total of 180 against Australia. Pretty good I would say. Sehwag averages close to 60 in Australia too btw, Anwar 47. This is a big difference even if you say Anwar faced better attacks especially considering that Sehwag played a lot more there.

I know I am in for some ludicrous arguments like "pitch flatted out then Sehwag batted", "Mcgrath had a pain in his right hand" etc If you can factor in dropped catches, umpiring decisions, edges, mistimed shots, your analysis would be more credible.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

Azhar Mahmood averages 65 in SA against great attacks. Clearly a far better batsman than Anwar

 

[AaronK]

Saeed anwar

for those of u who is saying saeed anwar never managed to have an average of 50 during the 90s.. u have to look at the bowling line up of 90s.. i mean comparing to 90s.. the current bowler are as good as they were.. i mean Sehwag never faced Ambrose, Walsh, Donald, Polock at their peak at least..

 

[Top_Cat]

This thread is a ****ing joke.

 

[Anil]

This thread is a ****ing joke.

isn't it just...!

 

[aussie]

Any knock can be made out to be bad by using arguments like "Oh it was a flat pitch", "he was past his peak", "he hadn't developed yet" etc etc.

Not necessarily. But i have not done this with Sehwag.

I had a good look at their career records. If you are going to use stats, Sehwag wins pretty easily. An average of 50 against 45 and a SR of about 25 points higher! In his debut match, he scored a 100 in SA with his team in deep trouble at 68/4. This is considered as an average knock. Yet Anwar's failings on debut are explained away using "no disgrace for a youngster to fail in his debut".

Maybe it was because Sehwag was probably ready for test cricket in 2001 while Anwar was in 90/91?. After all Anwar didn't play a test for 4 years after his debut. Plus the WI attack Anwar faced on debut was lightyears superior to what Sehwag faced on debut.

Sehwag clearly wouldn't have 50 if he played in 90s. While Anwar certainly would have if he played in this 2000s era.

Overall this is a poor example. Since many very good/great players blossomed late after poor starts such a Steve Waugh, Graham Gooch, Imran Khan, Hayden, Langer, Martyn, Benaud, Davidson, Vettori etc etc

If you take into account the world 11 match, Sehwag scored an 80 odd from memory out of a team total of 180 against Australia. Pretty good I would say.

Yes & this proves what?

Sehwag averages close to 60 in Australia too btw, Anwar 47. This is a big difference even if you say Anwar faced better attacks especially considering that Sehwag played a lot more there.

Sehwag on his two tours to AUS either faced a very average AUS attack in 2003/04 (the worst bowling attack AUS has played, outside of IND 98 during the glory days of 95 to 2006/07).

While in his only test in 07/08 was on the traditional Adelaide flat deck. As i said before i give him credit for making runs then especially in the second innings where IND had a mild hiccup on the last day. Given he was making a return to test crcket after being dropped by IND for almost a year due to the same technical faults i am talking about.

The AUS attack Anwar faced in AUS 99/00 was far superior to the ones Sehwag faced in03/04 & 07/08.

I know I am in for some ludicrous arguments like "pitch flatted out then Sehwag batted", "Mcgrath had a pain in his right hand" etc If you can factor in dropped catches, umpiring decisions, edges, mistimed shots, your analysis would be more credible.

I wouldn't do that since that we giving into the FCA theory (First chance average) that has been pioneerd by a certain poster on this site.

The criteria that i have judged Sehwag on that he has serious technical flaws that have been exposed countless times by pace attacks in testing conditions. Such as vs AUS 04/05 (all test excpet the Chennai test), ENG 05/06 (by Hoggard), Karachi 05/06, SA 06/07 (which lead to him being dropped for almost a year), SA 08/09 (in the last two tests), Kingston 06 & NZ 02/03. Is fair.

Sehwag has not improved technically from the person that was dropped for the entire of 2007.

 

[subshakerz]

A question to all those who claimed to have watched Anwar play...do you really have any doubt that had he played during the 2000s he wouldnt have had an average to match or exceed Sehwags? Yet I'm pretty sure that if Sehwag at his best had faced Donald/Pollock in SA and McGrath/Fleming in Australia, he wouldn't have done as well as Anwar.

I'm not saying that he is a one dimensional flat track bully, but there's no doubt that his record has been fattened by the pitches of the last decade. I recall the series against SA in India last year when he plundered the attack for a triple hundred in the first test on a dead wicket yet failed on difficult pitches in the next two.

I give Sehwag an edge in that when he is on song he is more devastating and capable of higher scores. While against spin I would rate their abilities as equal, against pace I would give Anwar a definite advantage.

 

[aussie]

A question to all those who claimed to have watched Anwar play...do you really have any doubt that had he played during the 2000s he wouldnt have had an average to match or exceed Sehwags? Yet I'm pretty sure that if Sehwag at his best had faced Donald/Pollock in SA and McGrath/Fleming in Australia, he wouldn't have done as well as Anwar.

I'm not saying that he is a one dimensional flat track bully, but there's no doubt that his record has been fattened by the pitches of the last decade. I recall the series against SA in India last year when he plundered the attack for a triple hundred in the first test on a dead wicket yet failed on difficult pitches in the next two.

I give Sehwag an edge in that when he is on song he is more devastating and capable of higher scores. While against spin I would rate their abilities as equal, against pace I would give Anwar a definite advantage.

Bullet, tell them..

 

[subshakerz]

The problem with judging batsmen from this decade is that inevitably the majority of their cricket will be against weak attacks or on flat pitches or both. Yet they will be favored against players of the past on the sheer weight on their runs/averages/records.

The biggest task for an opener is to play quality pace attacks well. I have seen both Anwar play and Sehwag play and have no doubt in my mind that Anwar was Sehwag's superior in this regard. Anwar was the opener of the 90s for a reason.

 

[aussie]

The problem with judging batsmen from this decade is that inevitably the majority of their cricket will be against weak attacks or on flat pitches or both. Yet they will be favored against players of the past on the sheer weight on their runs/averages/records.

The biggest task for an opener is to play quality pace attacks well. I have seen both Anwar play and Sehwag play and have no doubt in my mind that Anwar was Sehwag's superior in this regard. Anwar was the opener of the 90s for a reason.

Bullet sense has arrived, i did want to know if i was alone scrap.

Shakerz you have always been a knowledgeable PAK fan in many disccussions in the past. Do you know why after Anwar after he debuted in 90 not play a test for 4 years after?

 

[NUFAN]

Saeed by the length of his beard hey Subshakerz?

I used to love watching Anwar in ODI cricket, an awesome batsman, but in Tests, I just can't see it.

11 100's, no double hundreds. I always think that the older player gets preference in situations because people forget about things such as:

However, an uncharacteristic Australian fumble, by Mark Waugh at slip, let them claw their way back after early setbacks. Anwar, only four when he was dropped, fought on to 119 (174 balls, 20 fours)

Now I remember that innings, he took apart the brilliant Australian quick Scott Muller.

Virender Sehwag for mine, because if he bats for half a day, he can set India up amazingly well.

 

[subshakerz]

Bullet sense has arrived, i did want to know if i was alone scrap.

Shakerz you have always been a knowledgeable PAK fan in many disccussions in the past. Do you know why after Anwar after he debuted in 90 not play a test for 4 years after?

From what I remember, he debuted in 1990 but didn't score heavily and finally came back into the side in 1993 into the ODI side after some fine domestic form and into the test side in 1994.

 

[Shri]

Lets assume if Sehwag played in the 90s, lets also assume that his record had suffered because of the bowlers of that time. How bad would we have struggled then? A 10 point drop in his average? That would make him average 40 compared to Anwar's 45. I would still take Sehwag in my team for his strike rate and invaluable ability to take the game away from the opposition in 2 sessions. And no, you cant argue with my armchair expertise.

 

[aussie]

Virender Sehwag for mine, because if he bats for half a day, he can set India up amazingly well.

Indeed. But thats the two extremes of Sehwag if the pitch has nothing for the bowlers, any bowling attack will get smoked regardless of quality - but inversely if the pitch has some help for the bowlers Sehwag turns into a walking wicket.

Those two extremes where shown very well vs PAK 06 & SA 08. After he smoked than superb double vs PAK & triple vs SA. When Akhtar, Asif, Steyn got helpul tracsk later in those series Sehwag was all at sea, it was like they where bowling to a different batsman.

 

[aussie]

Lets assume if Sehwag played in the 90s, lets also assume that his record had suffered because of the bowlers of that time. How bad would we have struggled then? A 10 point drop in his average? That would make him average 40 compared to Anwar's 45. I would still take Sehwag in my team for his strike rate and invaluable ability to take the game away from the opposition in 2 sessions. And no, you cant argue with my armchair expertise.

35-40 IMO. But of course he would have still been fixture in the IND team given other than Sidhu & Shastri (for a short period), IND had no proper openers in the 90s.

 

[NUFAN]

Yeah your right Aussie, Sehwag would have averaged about 35 if he played in the 90s, of course he would have been only 12 years old at the time.

 

[subshakerz]

Lets assume if Sehwag played in the 90s, lets also assume that his record had suffered because of the bowlers of that time. How bad would we have struggled then? A 10 point drop in his average? That would make him average 40 compared to Anwar's 45. I would still take Sehwag in my team for his strike rate and invaluable ability to take the game away from the opposition in 2 sessions. And no, you cant argue with my armchair expertise.

You have to take into account that the 10-point hit will be mostly against all the quality pace attacks or away from home i.e. against the attacks when his runs matters the most.

 

[subshakerz]

Those two extremes where shown very well vs PAK 06 & SA 08. After he smoked than superb double vs PAK & triple vs SA. When Akhtar, Asif, Steyn got helpul tracsk later in those series Sehwag was all at sea, it was like they where bowling to a different batsman.

This is the essential point. When Sehwag is faced with tough conditions/attacks it is simply obvious he doesn't look anywhere near the same player. His dominating game disappears and he seems to be playing for survival. Whereas for Anwar, he would go on the counterattack in those conditions with more success.